Cutting Top Draftees

[Claremonster]

No, he wasn't, actually. I screwed that up. Mgteich is playing parameter games with how he's defending his point (Tyrone McKenzie was never active for a game before being cut, for example), but I was absolutely wrong given the paramaters he's set up.

Another rarity...not the norm though.

 

[Oswlek]

O we’d of been in agreement at the end of last year, I saw it as a lack of personnel as well; since then though watching Belichick release the following player (see below).

Kyle Love- 6’1 320 pounds (4.38)
Brandon Deaderick- 6’4 305 pounds (4.01)
Myron Pryor- 6’1 315 pounds (4.31)
Ron Brace - 6’3 330 pounds (4.40)

Other than UDFA’s he only added one guy in Kelly who is over 300 pounds (6’6 325 pounds) to the roster. I think many people overlook the fact that a 6’6 295 pound Armstead is not that big of a player when you break it down compared to Francis, Cunningham and Benard (see below).

Armstead- 6’6 295 pounds (3.78)
Cunningham- 6’3 280 pounds (3.73)
Francis- 6’2 270 pounds (3.64)
Benard- 6’2 260 pounds (3.51)

Note: Cunningham is and estimated weight based on reports over last 2 seasons.

(#) = pounds per inch.

The player type on a BMI scale of the group released were all similar and the new group (including Francis and Cunningham) that are now being used at the 3Tech all fall into a similar group as well.

Interesting. Hadn't thought of it like that, though I have to admit I'm not fully buying it.

First off, NE wanted Love to stay, so you can't put him in the "too big for the new scheme" category. Cunningham and Francis are probably tapped out at their H/W if they want to retain some NFL quickness, but Armstead has room to fill in.

Lastly, I know Benard has taken some UT snaps, but that reads like a combo of emergency + very specific package, not something they plan on building around.

Time will tell, but I suspect even if they open with the smaller DT group, that will be rectified by next May, if not sooner.

 

[Deus Irae]

In fairness to mg, the player in question is a second rounder, so it is somewhat fair to make that distinction.

Absolutely, and playing games with the parameters is perfectly normal and acceptable. They've got to be set somewhere.

That said, McKenzie and O'Connell definitely add some color to the conversation, and should be noted.

Yeah, I think BB's likes to give his top picks a lot of chances (usually too many, IMO), but he cuts bait with the stiffs and disappointments sooner or later.

 

[Danger Zone]

Re: Re: Cutting Top Draftees

Absolutely, and playing games with the parameters is perfectly normal and acceptable. They've got to be set somewhere.




Yeah, I think BB's likes to give his top picks a lot of chances (usually too many, IMO), but he cuts bait with the stiffs and disappointments sooner or later.

Deus knows (ha, a double entendre) how much his self-acknowledged "aggressive posting style" and lightning quickness to call everything that disagrees with him a homer -has irked me into responding back at him in a snarky manner...

... so much so that Im on his ignore list.

But there is no other poster here that I trust more than Deus' when it comes to actual football knowledge.

 

[manxman2601]

But there is no other poster here that I trust more than Deus' when it comes to actual football knowledge.

He deserves a chance to see that.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Some folks think that we might cut a draftee if they are not good enough to make the 53. Others would cut 2nd year high draftees.

Let's be clear. Belichick has never cut a 1st-4th rounder before Game One. Belichick has never cut a 1st or 2nd rounder before Game One of his second year. I believe that he did cut a couple of awful 3rd rounder before the Game 2 of Year 2.
==========================

As much as folks dislike Bilichick's special needs picks (Bequette, Wilson, and Harmon), they will make the 53 unless Bilichick changes his attitude towards his draftees (which is of course possible).

Bequette was a third rounder, just like O'Connell. If he truly sucks, he won't be kept around just because of where he was drafted.

 

[Brady6]

Interesting. Hadn't thought of it like that, though I have to admit I'm not fully buying it.

First off, NE wanted Love to stay, so you can't put him in the "too big for the new scheme" category. Cunningham and Francis are probably tapped out at their H/W if they want to retain some NFL quickness, but Armstead has room to fill in.

Lastly, I know Benard has taken some UT snaps, but that reads like a combo of emergency + very specific package, not something they plan on building around.

Time will tell, but I suspect even if they open with the smaller DT group, that will be rectified by next May, if not sooner.

I won't :deadhorse: just to get you to agree with me but it is worth pointing out the fact Jonathan Fanene is 6'4 285 which basically makes him the equivalent of Cunningham or Francis size wise. To be honest I think either Cunningham or Francis could be just as productive as Fanene who in my opinion was significantly overpaid and overrated when he signed last year. The difference between his impact and the player we should of stepped up and signed (Red Bryant) is a huge variance.

I am in agreement on the Benard situation I think that was more about injuries and needing to fill the role, I cannot see them using a 6'2 256lb OLB in that role regularly.

 

[Brady6]

Bequette was a third rounder, just like O'Connell. If he truly sucks, he won't be kept around just because of where he was drafted.

Everything I've read about Bequette has been positive, he was even seeing snaps with the 1st string in OTA's. What am I missing? :idontgetit:

 

[Brady6]

Interesting. Hadn't thought of it like that, though I have to admit I'm not fully buying it.

First off, NE wanted Love to stay, so you can't put him in the "too big for the new scheme" category. Cunningham and Francis are probably tapped out at their H/W if they want to retain some NFL quickness, but Armstead has room to fill in.

Lastly, I know Benard has taken some UT snaps, but that reads like a combo of emergency + very specific package, not something they plan on building around.

Time will tell, but I suspect even if they open with the smaller DT group, that will be rectified by next May, if not sooner.

If it doesn't workout using the smaller group I hope we can rectify it a lot quicker than May :nono2:

 

[manxman2601]

Everything I've read about Bequette has been positive, he was even seeing snaps with the 1st string in OTA's. What am I missing? :idontgetit:

A complete inability to produce last year. Hopefully he'll get better but my limited exposure to following the process from draft to early years on a football team suggests and difficult struggle.

 

[RayClay]

Cutting draft picks is a sure fire way to lose out on the best benefit of the draft: roster spots at a cheap price. The difference between veteran pay and rookie pay can be hundreds of thousands to half a million or more dollars. If you cut 6 players on rookie deals and replace them with 6 veterans with more NFL tenure you might cost yourself $2 million or more salary cap dollars that year. That could be a decent free agent signing.

Good point. BB would cut his grandmother if she was hurting the team, but might keep her around if she was cheap.

 

[Ring 6]

Some folks think that we might cut a draftee if they are not good enough to make the 53. Others would cut 2nd year high draftees.

Let's be clear. Belichick has never cut a 1st-4th rounder before Game One. Belichick has never cut a 1st or 2nd rounder before Game One of his second year. I believe that he did cut a couple of awful 3rd rounder before the Game 2 of Year 2.
==========================

As much as folks dislike Bilichick's special needs picks (Bequette, Wilson, and Harmon), they will make the 53 unless Bilichick changes his attitude towards his draftees (which is of course possible).

Cause/effect is a dangerous thing.
Belichick does not have an attitude toward whether he keeps players drafted in certain rounds for certain lengths of time, he has a cumulative set of decisions that so far have added up to that.

 

[Ring 6]

I won't :deadhorse: just to get you to agree with me but it is worth pointing out the fact Jonathan Fanene is 6'4 285 which basically makes him the equivalent of Cunningham or Francis size wise. To be honest I think either Cunningham or Francis could be just as productive as Fanene who in my opinion was significantly overpaid and overrated when he signed last year. The difference between his impact and the player we should of stepped up and signed (Red Bryant) is a huge variance.

I am in agreement on the Benard situation I think that was more about injuries and needing to fill the role, I cannot see them using a 6'2 256lb OLB in that role regularly.

Fanene was listed at 305, Cunnigham is listed at 260. (Estimating)

 

[Ring 6]

O we’d of been in agreement at the end of last year, I saw it as a lack of personnel as well; since then though watching Belichick release the following player (see below).

Kyle Love- 6’1 320 pounds (4.38)
Brandon Deaderick- 6’4 305 pounds (4.01)
Myron Pryor- 6’1 315 pounds (4.31)
Ron Brace - 6’3 330 pounds (4.40)

Other than UDFA’s he only added one guy in Kelly who is over 300 pounds (6’6 325 pounds) to the roster. I think many people overlook the fact that a 6’6 295 pound Armstead is not that big of a player when you break it down compared to Francis, Cunningham and Benard (see below).

Armstead- 6’6 295 pounds (3.78)
Cunningham- 6’3 280 pounds (3.73)
Francis- 6’2 270 pounds (3.64)
Benard- 6’2 260 pounds (3.51)

Note: Cunningham is and estimated weight based on reports over last 2 seasons.

(#) = pounds per inch.

The player type on a BMI scale of the group released were all similar and the new group (including Francis and Cunningham) that are now being used at the 3Tech all fall into a similar group as well.

I dont know where you get 280 for Cunningham. Pro Football Refererence has him at 248.

 

[IllegalContact]

the pats are pretty good at making sure the corpse is dead before they bury it.........

 

[Brady6]

Fanene was listed at 305, Cunnigham is listed at 260. (Estimating)

Every site I've seen has him listed at 6'4 285 pounds?

Jonathan Fanene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jonathan Fanene, DE at NFL.com

New England Patriots: Jonathan Fanene

ProFootballWeekly.com - Jonathan Fanene

Cunningham weigh 266 pounds at the combine; it has been widely reported in both of the last 2 season that he has bulked up, I would have to say his playing weight is a minimum of 280 pounds currently.

 

[AzPatsFan]

The stats are interesting but there is always a first time. Harmon and Wilson may be in direct competition for the same position. With Ebner being a ST standout and also providing safety depth, McCourty fixed, and Gregory and Wilson FA signings, there could be an interesting cut at this position.

No they are not. Not at all. Tavon is a Strong Safety with the coverage ability of an average-good CB, and much better than the typical SS. He is sitting while learning as the A. Wilson experiment continues. Gregory is a good-average FS, who has and is playing his career as a undersized SS. Harmon is a Free Safety with the head to direct a Defense; and with average cover abilities of a typical FS. BB wants him to be a full size and faster version of Sanders.

Both are sitting and learning with better players in front of them. But the SSs will likely be gone with in 2 seasons, while McCourty looks to be a Probowl FS for the rest of his career. Both are good depth, and both are good ST too.

Ebner is the Slater of the secondary. He is a very good ST-only guy at this stage of his career. Maybe more, if he learns the game.

 

[ATippett56]

Cunningham weigh 266 pounds at the combine; it has been widely reported in both of the last 2 season that he has bulked up, I would have to say his playing weight is a minimum of 280 pounds currently.

Jermaine Cunningham is listed at 252 pounds on the New England Patriots website:

Official Website of the New England Patriots | Team - Players

 

[mgteich]

If I might summarize. You believe that we have

McCourty - all-pro
A Wilson, Gregory - solid vets and good players
T Wilson, Harmon - developmental players who should pass A Wilson and Gregory in time
Ebner - a special teamer
=====================

I think that this is about right. Given this analysis, I would expect all but Ebner to make the 53 as safeties. The question is whether Ebner can win a ST-only position (over Cole, Tarpininian, Koutouvides and Rivera).

No they are not. Not at all. Tavon is a Strong Safety with the coverage ability of an average-good CB, and much better than the typical SS. He is sitting while learning as the A. Wilson experiment continues. Gregory is a good-average FS, who has and is playing his career as a undersized SS. Harmon is a Free Safety with the head to direct a Defense; and with average cover abilities of a typical FS. BB wants him to be a full size and faster version of Sanders.

Both are sitting and learning with better players in front of them. But the SSs will likely be gone with in 2 seasons, while McCourty looks to be a Probowl FS for the rest of his career. Both are good depth, and both are good ST too.

Ebner is the Slater of the secondary. He is a very good ST-only guy at this stage of his career. Maybe more, if he learns the game.

 

[Brady6]

I dont know where you get 280 for Cunningham. Pro Football Refererence has him at 248.

His combine weight being 266 pounds in 2010.

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Jermaine Cunningham

Jermaine Cunningham | Florida, DE : 2010 NFL Draft Scout Player Profile

Entering the last 2 season Cunningham was report to have added bulk per media reports, I'm sure for bulk to be noticeable on a 6'3-6'4 man it would account for a minimum of 14 pounds.

Pro Football also has him listed as 6'2 to go along with 248, both of which are inaccurate, at least based on his combine results which to my knowledge are the generally accurate and seldom vary in terms of height. I could be wrong but my estimation is 280-285 pounds is what Cunningham currently weighs in at.

I will say for the record I'd love to see all of the players weigh in because I do not feel many of the list weights are accurate anywhere.