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Charlie Weis beating the "Patriots should draft Mac Jones" drum

2021 Patriots Season:
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Sep 12th

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KontradictioN

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Yes almost identical with Wilson. Lance will be QB1 on my Pats Big Board.
Do you have any additional film on Lance aside from what’s on YouTube? I’ve been adamant that I wouldn’t take him at 15, but that’s purely based on a shortage of film. I can’t get a feel for him based upon what I’ve watched.
 

Run DMC

In the Starting Line-Up
Mac Jones is a poor mans AJ McCarron. Fat and slow ain't going to cut it in the NFL. Hard pass. Bill should stick with what he's good at, pick a defensive stud, get Jimmy or Mariota, and try for a later round lottery pick QB project.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Do you have any additional film on Lance aside from what’s on YouTube? I’ve been adamant that I wouldn’t take him at 15, but that’s purely based on a shortage of film. I can’t get a feel for him based upon what I’ve watched.
I've seen 8 A22 games so far. 7 from 2019 and the one from this year. I'm sold.
I can't share all. Some don't have a share option.







 

KontradictioN

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I've seen 8 A22 games so far. 7 from 2019 and the one from this year. I'm sold.
I can't share all. Some don't have a share option.







Watched the first one. He reminds me of a younger Cam, but with better touch on a lot of his downfield throws. I’ll watch the rest and let you know what I think. But this was basically what I was looking for. All-22 is where it’s at. Hard to get a feel for a guy with so little game tape with highlight reels on YouTube. It’d be different if I got a chance to watch him live, but their games don’t get broadcast down here in SEC Country.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Watched the first one. He reminds me of a younger Cam, but with better touch on a lot of his downfield throws. I’ll watch the rest and let you know what I think. But this was basically what I was looking for. All-22 is where it’s at. Hard to get a feel for a guy with so little game tape with highlight reels on YouTube. It’d be different if I got a chance to watch him live, but their games don’t get broadcast down here in SEC Country.
Once I really watched him and dove in I really liked what I saw.

He can get the ball out very quick on short/intermediate stuff. Goes through everything quick nothing is labored. So that move the chains, PA stuff is part of his game. I think people just have this picture in their head about what type of QB he is but he's legit imo. This part of his game is key here. He can vary up speed on his short/intermediate passes. Nice touch and gives WR something to work with good placement. Comfortable and looks the part under center.

He has as good of poise, pocket presence-command as anyone in the class. He's not a run first QB by any stretch. He can feel pressure, knows where to go and keeps his mechanics in tact. Beautiful pocket movement at times.

Decision making was as point as you'll find it. Very few, like very few dumb mistakes. He makes his share of mistakes but nothing that makes you want to throw up. That's huge for me. You need the right kind of bad and he doesn't fall apart at all in any way. Mentally tough. And again people can talk about his competition but he had 40+ TDs, 26 passing/0 INT a year and a half ago. That's incredible imo no matter the comp and especially not when someone displays his traits.

The things that really put me over the top are the stories I hear of him off the field. He got a work ethic from somewhere. Him and his brother are big shot college QB'S That doesn't happen by accident. Supposedly is a big film guy. Looking for soft spots, defenses and individual players on his team and others. Supposedly is a big prepare guy and wants to have boxes checked throughout the week. I could see him sitting down with coaches once or twice a week to get better at film study. Seems like a real football guy and someone who carries himself like a pro. Coaches rave about how he runs that offense.

Also out of all the big shot QB's coming out, he made it work with less than anyone else by far. Even Wilson at BYU had some decent guys you heard of. Lance made it work and excelled there.

He has issues but again he's so young. It's tough to kill him for it.

He has trouble scanning across the field and recognizing/throwing with proper anticipation. Coming off his first read and really throwing with anticipation through defenders. Again MOF is tough he gets caught up in it.

I loved seeing him work on his mechanics the other day on social bc while they're very good at times they become a little inconsistent.

Has to learn to not take any hits inside/outside the pocket. He's a truck and thinks he's invincible now. Toss the ball away, slide-get down. Not an awareness thing he just wants to make every play work or really max everything out. Live another day.

I mean he's a young guy that needs work playing and learning the position but there's so much there to like and work with.

I get Cam comps. They make sense. I also see some Tannehill (PA stuff, size, arm), Dak (maybe plays it on the safer side at times) , Josh Allen (incredible whip & blend of size/speed)

We'll see what happens. We should get a decent indication of where Bill wants to go in a few weeks.
 

DropKickFlutie

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
People actually watch tape and chart that stuff.

Still waiting on an answer as why you think Burrow and Jones are comparable? And why you think the Cousins comp is unfounded.

They're comparable in that Burrow was throwing to loaded weapons in Jefferson and Chase, also had 1 great year. Tua had essentially the same weapons.

It's basic math that the claim about % completion on 2nd and 3rd reads is BS. Thank about it. Jones averaged 77% completion all throws. It said he completed 80% of first reads. Then claims he made only 50% of 2nd or 3rd read throws. It makes no sense unless it makes some absurd claim that almost all his throws were 1st reads. This is patently untrue if one just watches his 2020 every-throw compilation. He makes a lot of good check downs, there's no way almost all his throws are "1st" reads which is a total guess by the lazy evaluator as to who was actually the first read.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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They're comparable in that Burrow was throwing to loaded weapons in Jefferson and Chase, also had 1 great year. Tua had essentially the same weapons.
Agreed they're not comparable at all as players. If this is all you can come up, please stop.
It's basic math that the claim about % completion on 2nd and 3rd reads is BS. Thank about it. Jones averaged 77% completion all throws. It said he completed 80% of first reads. It makes no sense unless it makes some absurd claim that almost all his throws were 1st reads. This is patently untrue if one just watches his 2020 every-throw compilation. He makes a lot of good check downs, there's no way almost all his throws are "1st" reads which is a total guess by the lazy evaluator as to who was actually the first read.
Legitimately can not tell how serious you are with these post.

I'm happy you're in full draft mode though. More people need to realize if you're not drafting well you're not in a position for long-term success.
 

DropKickFlutie

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I'm happy you're in full draft mode though. More people need to realize if you're not drafting well you're not in a position for long-term success.

Look I know you put a lot of time into this and I respect it a ton. But I don't appreciate the condescending tone. I've gone through your draft histories and you've been wrong a lot too. So let's not play the game of someone doesn't know anything.

Help me understand how one can claim (not your claaim but whatever site said this) Mac Jones only completed 50% of all his throws that were 2nd and 3rd reads. Walk me through this. It doesn't make sense based on simple math when Jones completed 77% of all throws and he completed 80% of all 1st reads. I actually hope people believe this so that Jones falls to us after the first round, but but claim doesn't make sense
 
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BaconGrundleCandy

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Look I know you put a lot of time into this and I respect it a ton. But I don't appreciate the condescending tone. I've gone through your draft histories and you've been wrong a lot too.
I wish someone would go through all of them and compare them with others. I already have a good sense but I'd like to put more context to it. With some sort of measurement either way.
40% might be great but no one ever put something like together.
So let's not play the game of someone doesn't know anything.
Look post away but if you say something someone else has a right to call you on your bs. Don't get offended, with all due respect make a point. And saying two prospects are comparable or similar bc they played with talented players and have a small sample size is completely useless when evaluating any prospect.

Another thing. I can't help but love when people throw disrespect at a Cousins who has played almost a decade and would be employed tomorrow in an instant. He is who he is but Jones has never taken a snap. Comparing him to a guy that can win games but needs a lot of help isn't a bad thing imo.
Help me understand how one can claim (not your claaim but whatever site said this) Mac Jones only completed 50% of all his throws that were 2nd and 3rd reads. Walk me through this. It doesn't make sense based on simple math when Jones completed 77% of all throws and he completed 80% of all 1st reads. I actually hope people believe this so that Jones falls to us after the first round, but but claim doesn't make sense
I've seen this brought up but have no idea who the person is/are and which site the data is coming from.

I'm assuming they isolated 2nd & 3rd read passes and got their numbers that way?

I might look at but am pretty much done with this class and have already began 2022 scouting.

I'm comfortable with what Mac was running, what was asked, how he wins, what he needs etc ... And what he needs a lot more than superior targets is a superior OL. That was his and Bamas biggest advantage over their competition. It has been for years. Smith & Jeudy and Waddle are unbelievable but Bamas OL the gap between that OL and the DL/defenses they face is bigger imo. That gap automatically closes in the NFL.

Anyway I'm glad you like Jones and are in draft mode. We'll have a much better idea of where Bill is going when FA starts
 

1960Pats

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You are stuck on "running QB" or "The best QBs in the NYFL have always been the ones who can stay in the pocket" but you're either ignorant to the QB landscape or don't know what a pocket passer is. There are very few of them in the league.

I asked you to name me the guys that are SB contenders from that bunch and you couldn't. After I gave you multiple examples of guys that won SB lacking the ability to stand in a pocket all game and beat you with their arm. Mahomes is hardly a pocket passer and kills teams with his athleticism. Cam, Kap, Jimmy & Goff all played in SB and none were pure pocket passers.

The point is those QB's aren't in the league anymore and those types aren't in the league now. Look at the past few drafts and who's been taken early, who's worked out. Look at this year's class.

The QB's you describe don't exist. I asked you to name me some and haven't gotten a response. Besides Brady what guys are in that mold that you can call a SB contending/capable QB.
It's all semantics with you.

QBs that scramble and roll out on occasion are not running QBs. Rapistberger was never a running QB. He was a big guy that bought time by staying upright even when in the grasp. QBs who have plays that are designed for them to run are what I consider running QBs. Most all QBs have to move at times but they all need to learn how to pass from the pocket to win. That's the point.

If you look at the last 20 years and the 40 QBs that played in the SB, very few have been running QBs by that definition. Only Cant, Kap and Foles ran designed runs. The only others that ran much, Wilson, Rodgers and Mahomes, did it when they had no other options or didn't recognize them when they did. That's 3-6 out of 40.

As for recent running QBs, like Watson, Murray, Allen and Jackson (who's more of a RB than a QB) they haven't won squat and the only one who got close was Allen, mainly because he stopped running so much. Oddly enough, his biggest chance was wasted when he turned a 2nd and 4 into a 3rd and 24 with a stupid attempt to buy more time by running around like a chicken with his head cut off.

I'll give you the last word because we already had this discussion in another thread a while back.
 

Ochmed Jones

Pro Bowl Player
Just curious but where do you get stats on a guy's completion rate on 2nd and 3rd read throws ??

Also if a guy averages a 77% completion rate for an entire season, which is absurd, even better than when Burrow and Tua were throwing to all star teammates, why does this assume all his completions were first reads ?? There is video on every throw he made this season and it's obvious he made smart check down throws a lot as well. So is this 2nd and 3rd read throw stat totally bogus ???

.
For those of us that played the game in high school and college, we have had to watch thousands of hours of film. We review our film from the previous week’s game. We use film to scout next weeks team. some coaches give tests on everything from formations to routes to tendencies.

you learn what to watch for on film.

granted watching 11 on 11 film is surprisingly different from watching tv or YouTube, but the principles are the same.

for Jones, watch his head, arms and chest. Think about what he is thinking and where he is looking. Chart the throws,
 

Ochmed Jones

Pro Bowl Player
They're comparable in that Burrow was throwing to loaded weapons in Jefferson and Chase, also had 1 great year. Tua had essentially the same weapons.

It's basic math that the claim about % completion on 2nd and 3rd reads is BS. Thank about it. Jones averaged 77% completion all throws. It said he completed 80% of first reads. Then claims he made only 50% of 2nd or 3rd read throws. It makes no sense unless it makes some absurd claim that almost all his throws were 1st reads. This is patently untrue if one just watches his 2020 every-throw compilation. He makes a lot of good check downs, there's no way almost all his throws are "1st" reads which is a total guess by the lazy evaluator as to who was actually the first read.

One more thing I want to add, I do not count throws behind the los or check downs. I am only charting downfield throws.

my bad!
 

DropKickFlutie

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
One more thing I want to add, I do not count throws behind the los or check downs. I am only charting downfield throws.

my bad!

I don't care to debate your good skill or knowledge.

I'm going off basic logic. If Mac made 77% of all throws, and if people are saying he made at least 80% of all 1st read throws, then are people saying he barely made any 2nd read throws and 3rd read throws at all ???

.
 

Ochmed Jones

Pro Bowl Player
I don't care to debate your good skill or knowledge.

I'm going off basic logic. If Mac made 77% of all throws, and if people are saying he made at least 80% of all 1st read throws, then are people saying he barely made any 2nd read throws and 3rd read throws at all ???

.
The vast majority of Jones’s throws this year were to his first read, because his first reads were ridiculously wide open all year,
 

Tony2046

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great job on this.

The one point I will add is this.

1.) most of Jones’s throw are single read throws. And those nfl receivers he was throwing to, were incredibly wide open!

2.) single read throws, Jones was over 80 percent completion rate.

3.) read progression. When Jones has to go to his second or third reads, his completion rate goes down to a little more than 50 percent despite having over 5 seconds to get the ball out.

in the nfl, the windows are really tight and time is of the essence!

my questions with Jones have nothing to do with athleticism. It has to do with can he throw in tight windows in around 2 seconds or so and why is he so inaccurate on second and third read throws.

Isn't that the question for any QB ?
 

Tony2046

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Not to highjack the thread, well not sure anyone can after sliplady's posts, but I digress. The problem with Cousins is he is the definition of anti-clutch. He's the guy if your losing that will being you back into the game and with a chance to tie or win the game on a late 4th quarter/OT drive will get you across the fifty just to throw a mind numbing pick.

Live the analogy.


Side note:. Personally, I enjoy Slip lady's posts.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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It's all semantics with you.

QBs that scramble and roll out on occasion are not running QBs. Rapistberger was never a running QB. He was a big guy that bought time by staying upright even when in the grasp. QBs who have plays that are designed for them to run are what I consider running QBs. Most all QBs have to move at times but they all need to learn how to pass from the pocket to win. That's the point.
You're missing the point. Both were guys that didn't exactly win bc the pocket passers and Wilson's legs were a big reason why they won. That was their entire offense. Lynch and Wilson's ability to make it happen.

Also QB's are QB's. They're different, have different skill sets but I wouldn't accuse some of semantics and then classify QB's as "running' or "pocket passers".
If you look at the last 20 years and the 40 QBs that played in the SB, very few have been running QBs by that definition. Only Cant, Kap and Foles ran designed runs. The only others that ran much, Wilson, Rodgers and Mahomes, did it when they had no other options or didn't recognize them when they did. That's 3-6 out of 40.

As for recent running QBs, like Watson, Murray, Allen and Jackson (who's more of a RB than a QB) they haven't won squat and the only one who got close was Allen, mainly because he stopped running so much. Oddly enough, his biggest chance was wasted when he turned a 2nd and 4 into a 3rd and 24 with a stupid attempt to buy more time by running around like a chicken with his head cut off.

I'll give you the last word because we already had this discussion in another thread a while back.
This isn't about that last word. If your feelings are hurt then please just ignore or don't respond. It's not that serious, just a little debate about QB's.

Again though, you are missing the point, respectfully. And here it is ...
I'm asking you to name me QB's that are alive, exist and play today. And you give me a list from 40 years ago lol. No one is arguing that you don't need to be able to pass from the pocket in order to win and win it all. Rushing TD's are great but you pass to win. That's a given and 101 stuff.

I'm simply saying there are a different breed, style of QB's today. That there's not only way to success and guys today are not in the mold of what teams were looking for 20-30 years ago. I'm not even arguing better or worse. They're just different types. Brady, Brees, Warner, Favre, Palmer, Manning, Pennington, Eli, Rivers were what was coming up through college. That's just what the system was producing. Today you have guys who are a little more system dependent but a little more versatile in terms of skill set.

You obviously need to be able to pass from the pocket to win. The difference is before those guys or most of them were strict pass passers. High school coaches bucked that trend and started putting the best athletes at QB. Or a lot of them anyway.

And if you're talking about Josh Allen he ran about the same amount of time the past two years. 89, 109 and 102 last year. He could have ran more. That had no effect on his mechanics, BD or getting a legit WR1 (top 10 WR) in Diggs. Those three played a much bigger role in his development and success than running less or just passing from the pocket. He improved and got a lot of help.

Again I don't look at this as "getting the last word". Debate and discussions are some of the reasons why we're here. It's just fun. If you don't respond I'll take that as you conceding defeat though.
 

RIpats88

In the Starting Line-Up
1614870539615.png

Idk, maybe a QB doesn't have to be in tip top shape. But he makes Eli manning and Brady look like aaron donald. Wonder if that's a concern
 

1960Pats

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You're missing the point. Both were guys that didn't exactly win bc the pocket passers and Wilson's legs were a big reason why they won. That was their entire offense. Lynch and Wilson's ability to make it happen.

Also QB's are QB's. They're different, have different skill sets but I wouldn't accuse some of semantics and then classify QB's as "running' or "pocket passers".

This isn't about that last word. If your feelings are hurt then please just ignore or don't respond. It's not that serious, just a little debate about QB's.

Again though, you are missing the point, respectfully. And here it is ...
I'm asking you to name me QB's that are alive, exist and play today. And you give me a list from 40 years ago lol. No one is arguing that you don't need to be able to pass from the pocket in order to win and win it all. Rushing TD's are great but you pass to win. That's a given and 101 stuff.

I'm simply saying there are a different breed, style of QB's today. That there's not only way to success and guys today are not in the mold of what teams were looking for 20-30 years ago. I'm not even arguing better or worse. They're just different types. Brady, Brees, Warner, Favre, Palmer, Manning, Pennington, Eli, Rivers were what was coming up through college. That's just what the system was producing. Today you have guys who are a little more system dependent but a little more versatile in terms of skill set.

You obviously need to be able to pass from the pocket to win. The difference is before those guys or most of them were strict pass passers. High school coaches bucked that trend and started putting the best athletes at QB. Or a lot of them anyway.

And if you're talking about Josh Allen he ran about the same amount of time the past two years. 89, 109 and 102 last year. He could have ran more. That had no effect on his mechanics, BD or getting a legit WR1 (top 10 WR) in Diggs. Those three played a much bigger role in his development and success than running less or just passing from the pocket. He improved and got a lot of help.

Again I don't look at this as "getting the last word". Debate and discussions are some of the reasons why we're here. It's just fun. If you don't respond I'll take that as you conceding defeat though.
My feelings are certainly not being hurt by a pompous ass who thinks that going over and over and over with the same opinions in numerous threads is "conceding defeat" and that this place is some form of a contest. You aren't worth my time.
 

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