Celtics 2023 - 2024 Discussion

[Kdo5]

Cleveland is tough. Mitchell is maybe the most underrated superstar in the nba. Great player.
There's often not much carryover from a blowout win but what really makes us all feel good about a title is how the C's have been playing for several months now.
Very consistently top offense and top defense.
The starters know each others games now and there running like a well-oiled machine.
Biggest difference from now and earlier in the season is how both JT and JB have adapted and expanded their games.
JB was terrible early in the season and I posted way back then that he needed to take a hard look in the mirror and do some honest self-evaluation.
So you can all thank me for his turnaround. It's really the only reason.

I don’t think Brown was terrible at any stretch. Maybe needed a handful of games to adjust a bit but he pretty quickly hit his stride.

It was a classic big overreaction to like a few games max and pretty much all of it was centered around the fact that he got the super max and had a bad Game 7 in the ECF.

A prime example of what terrible looks like is Jordan Poole.

 

[jimnance]

I don’t think Brown was terrible at any stretch. Maybe needed a handful of games to adjust a bit but he pretty quickly hit his stride.

It was a classic big overreaction to like a few games max and pretty much all of it was centered around the fact that he got the super max and had a bad Game 7 in the ECF.

A prime example of what terrible looks like is Jordan Poole.

He was never as bad as our buddy Ice harped on.
But he was not good for more than just a handful.of games. He was a turnover machine, taking bad shots, low assists and not playing good defense. He was easily the worst of the 5 starters for a stretch early in the season.
I think a lot of that was adjusting to his new teammates and an expended role for White.
He was always excellent in transition. One of the best in the nba all season.
But his turnaround was pretty dramatic. He started playing to his strengths. Assists way up. Involving teammates.
Making the right read consistently,something he wasn't doing earlier. Shot selection and bball iq much better.
And he really focused on playing better defense which he is.
He's a very valuable player.
One of the things Ice has overlooked is the value of a strong one on one player able to create for himself when defenses lock down in bigtime clutch situations.
Tatum is obviously the best on the team at that but Brown is 2nd with KP very close behind.
That can be huge in the playoffs.
The other thing with JB is that he's taking what defenses give him which is the right way to play.
I expect him to play very well in the playoffs this time around as I expect the entire team to as well.
Won't be easy. Lot of tough teams in the league.. But as long as they're healthy, C's will be tough to beat this year.
Last word on Brown: as a fan of course Im thrilled with how he's playing since it makes the team better.
But I also like the guy and he has integrity by realizing he had to play better and doing so.
I know he's been working his butt off at practices and watching film. Change like that doesn't come in a vacuum

 

[Kdo5]

He was never as bad as our buddy Ice harped on.
But he was not good for more than just a handful.of games. He was a turnover machine, taking bad shots, low assists and not playing hood defense. He was easily the worst if the 5 starters for a stretch early in the season.
I think a lot of that was adjusting to hew teammates and an expended role for White.
He was always excellent in transition. One of the best in the nba all season.
But his turnaround was pretty dramatic. He started playing to his strengths. Assists way up. Involving teammates.
Making the right read consistently,something he wasn't doing earlier. Shot selection and bball iq much better.
And he really focused on playing better defense which he is.
He's a very valuable player.
One of the things Ice has overlooked is the value of a strong one on one player able to create for himself when defenses lock down in bigtime clutch situations.
Tatum is obviously the best on the team at that but Brown is 2nd with KP very close behind.
That can be huge in the playoffs.
The other thing with JB is that he's taking what defenses give him which is the right way to play.
I expect him to play very well in the playoffs this time around as I expe t the entire team to as well.
Won't be easy. Lot of tough teams in the league.. But as long as they're healthy, C's will be tough to beat this year.
Last word on Brown: as a fan of course Im thrilled with how he's playing since it makes the team better.
But I also like the guy and he has integrity by realizing he had to play better and doing so.
I know he's been working his butt off at practices and watching film. Change like that doesn't come in a vacuum

I think we pretty much 99% agree. Just splitting hairs in that I think people were overreacting.

It’s like the same deal with Jayson Tatum. It felt like every early part of the season he played slightly below his standards and people would suggest he’s overrated. Then March and April come around and the pants are off and he is the best player in the league.

It will happen these playoffs too. A bad shooting night or two and he’ll get absolutely killed before he turns it around and everyone is singing his praises.

Even the great players can have slumps and it doesn’t mean much about them as a player. See Dame in Milwaukee for an example. Sometimes players need time to adjust to different players and roles.

The knee jerk reactions are strong, especially in the NBA.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think we pretty much 99% agree. Just splitting hairs in that I think people were overreacting.

It’s like the same deal with Jayson Tatum. It felt like every early part of the season he played slightly below his standards and people would suggest he’s overrated. Then March and April come around and the pants are off and he is the best player in the league.

It will happen these playoffs too. A bad shooting night or two and he’ll get absolutely killed before he turns it around and everyone is singing his praises.

Even the great players can have slumps and it doesn’t mean much about them as a player. See Dame in Milwaukee for an example. Sometimes players need time to adjust to different players and roles.

The knee jerk reactions are strong, especially in the NBA.

Citing previous full years of stats and all the running stats ytd isn’t a knee jerk reaction.

Brown has an oddball game for the modern NBA. He would be one of the league’s best players in previous decades. In a league where shooting efficiency is king, Brown has bizarre splits. Low 3 point pct, very high (league leading) fadeaway / turnaround shot pct, actually better at contested shots than uncontested shots.

Brown has adapted his game in exactly the manner I said he needed to adapt his game months ago: less 3s, more passing, better shot selection.

He makes the team better. However at $50M he doesn’t make the team that much better. Yes now I would rather now have him playing than not playing, but in terms of player value and cost, and all the players they need to pay, I stand by my general idea that these advanced are very meaningful and that Brown is still overrated. He isn’t terrible and isn’t hurting the team at this point, and I’d like to have him, but not at the expense of lacking funds to extend Tatum, White, and KP.

I’ll take the L on Brown for this year and going to just focus on enjoying the rest of this season and worry about that stuff later. However, both JB and JT still have stretches of hero ball stubbornness and besides injuries, it’s the only thing that can stop them from winning it all. I hope they both continue to trust the system come postseason.

Btw the only kneejerk reaction with Dame is that he’s a great player, since he’s been hot lately. In reality he isn’t, it’s reflected in his team’s performance and results, and this recent stretch is the outlier. He’s a ball centric, low efficiency shot jacker and one of the very worst defenders in the league.

 

[Kdo5]

Citing previous full years of stats and all the running stats ytd isn’t a knee jerk reaction.

Brown has an oddball game for the modern NBA. He would be one of the league’s best players in previous decades. In a league where shooting efficiency is king, Brown has bizarre splits. Low 3 point pct, very high (league leading) fadeaway / turnaround shot pct, actually better at contested shots than uncontested shots.

Brown has adapted his game in exactly the manner I said he needed to adapt his game months ago: less 3s, more passing, better shot selection.

He makes the team better. However at $50M he doesn’t make the team that much better. Yes now I would rather now have him playing than not playing, but in terms of player value and cost, and all the players they need to pay, I stand by my general idea that these advanced are very meaningful and that Brown is still overrated. He isn’t terrible and isn’t hurting the team at this point, and I’d like to have him, but not at the expense of lacking funds to extend Tatum, White, and KP.

I’ll take the L on Brown for this year and going to just focus on enjoying the rest of this season and worry about that stuff later. However, both JB and JT still have stretches of hero ball stubbornness and besides injuries, it’s the only thing that can stop them from winning it all. I hope they both continue to trust the system come postseason.

Btw the only kneejerk reaction with Dame is that he’s a great player, since he’s been hot lately. In reality he isn’t, it’s reflected in his team’s performance and results, and this recent stretch is the outlier. He’s a ball centric, low efficiency shot jacker and one of the very worst defenders in the league.

He never has been. And I don’t know what you’ve been watching the past several seasons if you think that’s ever been the case. This team would not have been in the ECF in 2019, 2022, or 2023 without him. Probably not 2017 either.

I would be very interested to see if your hypothesis that a big 3 of Tatum, Porzingis, and DWhite would be a real contender. I have big doubts on that. KP has been healthy this year and still missed 16 games already.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

He never has been. And I don’t know what you’ve been watching the past several seasons if you think that’s ever been the case. This team would not have been in the ECF in 2019, 2022, or 2023 without him. Probably not 2017 either.

I would be very interested to see if your hypothesis that a big 3 of Tatum, Porzingis, and DWhite would be a real contender. I have big doubts on that. KP has been healthy this year and still missed 16 games already.

It’s a good point about KP’s injury history. It’s pretty concerning and JB is more of a sure thing for durability. However as contracts go, KP is signed through 2026 so unless they trade him, the cost/risk factor is already committed.

Building around Tatum, KP, and White is risky because of KP’s injuries. If he’s healthy, they’re not going to win 65+ games but can they still be an elite team? I believe they can but can’t prove.

Celtics are >54M over the cap for next year though.

Brown is 27, Porzingis is 28, White is 29. Not a massive difference in age.

Also, Holiday is set to make 40M. Great player but expensive and slowly regressing.

They might be able to squeeze all 4 for one more season but would be difficult.

This is their year though. They will probably not have this type of monster roster again.

5 teams with highest NBA salary cap for 2024 ft. Boston Celtics & more

The NBA salary cap is projected to be $141 million. NBA Insider Shams Charania reported the new NBA salary cap figures. The number is one million lower than the projections released this summer.

www.sportskeeda.com

 

[bresna]

Cleveland is tough. Mitchell is maybe the most underrated superstar in the nba. Great player.

Mitchell's out for tonight's game. They also just announced that Strus is out. Caris Lavert & Isaac Okoro are listed as questionable. This game worries me even more now. After that fiasco against the undermanned Lakers, my confidence in this team facing situations like this dropped dramatically. C'mon Celts... show me I'm wrong.

 

[aluminum seats]

Great run this team is on. One thing I was thinking is just how much better the west is this year than the east, you have Atlanta, a pretty crummy team still potentially getting in, where the 10th seeded team in the west is over .500. I have to wonder how that might be inflating the Celtics record. Having said that, whoever comes out of the west will only get there after being beat up by the other top contenders there, so things are looking good for sure

 

[Vatahala 2]

Mitchell's out for tonight's game. They also just announced that Strus is out. Caris Lavert & Isaac Okoro are listed as questionable. This game worries me even more now. After that fiasco against the undermanned Lakers, my confidence in this team facing situations like this dropped dramatically. C'mon Celts... show me I'm wrong.

Tatum is trying to show your wrong with 22 first half points on 12/15 80% shooting plus 9 rebounds.

 

[Kdo5]

HORRIBLE last second shot by Tatum. That **** has to change if we are going to win a championship. A one point game, you had a good 18 seconds on the final possession and did that. Just slow walked, let them fully set their defense and went iso. There's four other great players on the floor and he didn't look for any of them.

Epic collapse in general.

 

[bresna]

Tatum is trying to show your wrong with 22 first half points on 12/15 80% shooting plus 9 rebounds.

What was that again?

 

[jimnance]

Only saw the last 2 minutes. Agree with the announcer that C's got stagnant on offense in crunch time.
I don't put much more stock in this game than I did for the GS blowout.
C's are playing a lot of games vs. tough teams right now and have a huge lead for best record.
Hard to get up for a game like th8s with Mitchell out. It's natural to ease up while Cavs are fighting for their lives defending their home court.
I wasn't impressed with Tatum late in the game.
He hasn't done that a lot lately but still need to clean that up

 

[Kdo5]

Only saw the last 2 minutes. Agree with the announcer that C's got stagnant on offense in crunch time.
I don't put much more stock in this game than I did for the GS blowout.
C's are playing a lot of games vs. tough teams right now and have a huge lead for best record.
Hard to get up for a game like th8s with Mitchell out. It's natural to ease up while Cavs are fighting for their lives defending their home court.
I wasn't impressed with Tatum late in the game.
He hasn't done that a lot lately but still need to clean that up

I do think there's some stock to be put in. The last possession execution is bad, both the coach and superstar. Mazzula should've called a timeout and if he wasn't going to do so then Tatum needs to know to hustle and not let them set their defense so easily. Even Scal was yelling at them to stop walking up the court on the broadcast.

And then there is the tunnel vision and panic shots from Tatum. The team is excellent but this is an ongoing problem and something that could cost us in a huge playoff game.

 

[jimnance]

I do think there's some stock to be put in. The last possession execution is bad, both the coach and superstar. Mazzula should've called a timeout and if he wasn't going to do so then Tatum needs to know to hustle and not let them set their defense so easily. Even Scal was yelling at them to stop walking up the court on the broadcast.

And then there is the tunnel vision and panic shots from Tatum. The team is excellent but this is an ongoing problem and something that could cost us in a huge playoff game.

Yup. It could. Need to clean that **** up. Other than injuries it's about the only thing that could derail a title run

 

[aluminum seats]

HORRIBLE last second shot by Tatum. That **** has to change if we are going to win a championship. A one point game, you had a good 18 seconds on the final possession and did that. Just slow walked, let them fully set their defense and went iso. There's four other great players on the floor and he didn't look for any of them.

Epic collapse in general.

Yep. And they do it EVERY TIME

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I do think there's some stock to be put in. The last possession execution is bad, both the coach and superstar. Mazzula should've called a timeout and if he wasn't going to do so then Tatum needs to know to hustle and not let them set their defense so easily. Even Scal was yelling at them to stop walking up the court on the broadcast.

And then there is the tunnel vision and panic shots from Tatum. The team is excellent but this is an ongoing problem and something that could cost us in a huge playoff game.

Exactly the type of **** I referred to earlier today. Tatum plays like an ******* in crunch time. Theme throughout his career. Cavs were thrilled to realize he was going to do his dumb thing rather than setting up a play to get a mismatch when you have five high caliber offensive players on the court.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Yep. And they do it EVERY TIME

I hate how Tatum gets that look on his face like “Oh no! The play isn’t there. I don’t want to have to this but I’m gonna dribble around and force up an off balance shot at the buzzer.” So ridiculous.

 

[Kdo5]

Exactly the type of **** I referred to earlier today. Tatum plays like an ******* in crunch time. Theme throughout his career. Cavs were thrilled to realize he was going to do his dumb thing rather than setting up a play to get a mismatch when you have five high caliber offensive players on the court.

Yep. I would be happy with any of the other four guys taking the final shot with a decent look, even if they miss. It is still a better probability shot than what Tatum does. I have to think other teams love how predictable the Celtics are in this situation.

They need to put the ball in White or Holiday's hands and let them decide how to proceed. If Tatum is the first option to go to, great but I want them making the decision. Not that it will ever happen.

 

[bresna]

I do wish I was wrong with this team but repeatedly losing to undermanned teams like this is a bad sign. When I watch them lose like this, I really have to doubt their chances in the playoffs.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I do wish I was wrong with this team but repeatedly losing to undermanned teams like this is a bad sign. When I watch them lose like this, I really have to doubt their chances in the playoffs.

They’re 10+ point favorites in most games. They play a lot of games. They’re going to lose some, and it will often be because they took their foot off the gas. That’s just basketball.

I have concerns about their player leadership in crunch time. Basically it’s this: White, Holiday, and Porzingis don’t fold under pressure and constantly make game winning plays. Tatum does fold under pressure and constantly makes game losing decisions. I’d like to see Mazzula prioritize winning over burnishing Tatum’s alpha dog reputation.

This isn’t normal. Watch other games. Other teams don’t iso their star player on every final possession. Mazzula is starting to rack up losses where wrongly he didn’t call timeout to get them settled and draw up a play/philosophy. Seen this too many times including last year’s playoffs. Inexcusable at this point with a historically great and varied offense like this.