Can this team win a ring with Pees at coordinator?

[MoLewisrocks]

what are you talking about? McDaniels, Weis, and Crennel were all considered top guys while they were coordinators for us. Even Mangini was, although that was undeserved. It's not that Belichick doesn't want top talent, it's that he places a lot of value on promoting internally and creating continuity within the Pats' system, and he knows that the guys in the Pats' pipeline have a lot of talent.

By top coaches mg means establish coaches with name recognition. Mike Martz, Dom Capers, **** Jauron...Kinda like veteran jag QB's who are available as coordinators for a reason... Who would certainly come in here and run a system they have zero familiarity better than the guys Bill spends years teaching it to or we could always just switch everyone else to run the new guys scheme .

It's been almost a decade now and some people here remain unable or unwilling to grasp that the beauty of Belichick lies in the courage of his convictions where his HIS system is concerned and the consistency that stability has provided even in the face of coordinator defections and HOF QB injury. Did we go on to win every SB after they departed...no...but it was insane to expect that kind of result in the first place. Particularly given the fact that the core was aging out on defense and chasing the almighty buck on offense and Bill tried to stretch it out as long as he could before beginning the task of replacing it. He did that in part by first upgrading Brady's offensive weapons after 2006 and the bridge almost worked. Then of course in 2008 he lost Brady for the season after drafting a couple of potential replacement core defenders. Ten weeks into 2009 Brady is back but getting the offense on track after being absent him for a season took a few weeks during which potential MVP Welker missed time and the short yardage RB corps went down AGAIN. Meanwhile Pees had to compensate for the loss of his best young defender and signal caller for a month while he was teaching a much younger and faster defense the ropes of playing for BB. In the midst of all this two name additions didn't pan out in Galloway and the MIA Springs.

It's really sad, I bet at least two dozen fan bases, and likely more if they were being totally honest, would trade their entire organization and their first born for a shot at being what we have been for the last 8+ seasons with Belichick and his staff buying the groceries and cooking the dinner, a perenial SB contender with four trips to the ultimate game and three lombardi's to show for it. And a system that endures. Only here is that not nearly good enough...

 

[flyonthewall]

By top coaches mg means establish coaches with name recognition. Mike Martz, Dom Capers, **** Jauron...Kinda like veteran jag QB's who are available as coordinators for a reason... Who would certainly come in here and run a system they have zero familiarity better than the guys Bill spends years teaching it to or we could always just switch everyone else to run the new guys scheme .

It's been almost a decade now and some people here remain unable or unwilling to grasp that the beauty of Belichick lies in the courage of his convictions where his HIS system is concerned and the consistency that stability has provided even in the face of coordinator defections and HOF QB injury. Did we go on to win every SB after they departed...no...but it was insane to expect that kind of result in the first place. Particularly given the fact that the core was aging out on defense and chasing the almighty buck on offense and Bill tried to stretch it out as long as he could before beginning the task of replacing it. He did that in part by first upgrading Brady's offensive weapons after 2006 and the bridge almost worked. Then of course in 2008 he lost Brady for the season after drafting a couple of potential replacement core defenders. Ten weeks into 2009 Brady is back but getting the offense on track after being absent him for a season took a few weeks during which potential MVP Welker missed time and the short yardage RB corps went down AGAIN. Meanwhile Pees had to compensate for the loss of his best young defender and signal caller for a month while he was teaching a much younger and faster defense the ropes of playing for BB. In the midst of all this two name additions didn't pan out in Galloway and the MIA Springs.

It's really sad, I bet at least two dozen fan bases, and likely more if they were being totally honest, would trade their entire organization and their first born for a shot at being what we have been for the last 8+ seasons with Belichick and his staff buying the groceries and cooking the dinner, a perenial SB contender with four trips to the ultimate game and three lombardi's to show for it. And a system that endures. Only here is that not nearly good enough...

Well said Mo

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Maverick4, you didn't address my post (pg7) regarding your assessment of the talent on D. You can't just give a blanket label of there being good talent all along without address the fact the the strengths/weaknesses & personnel of the teams dating back to 2003 have been very much different.

I agree with you that this years team is loaded with talent and potential, but majority of the players are also very young and inexperienced. The 06-08 teams were the exact opposite and had a lot of players with great experience/leadership but who were past their prime physically. What we had in 03 and 04 were teams with BOTH talent and experience. There is a strong correlation between this and how well a defense regularly performs in clutch situations, red zone, big third downs, etc.

Sure he can. NEM did for years... Mav learned at the feet of the master that even when you win the coordinator could and should have done it better. And when you don't win it all it's never because you lacked talent or the talent didn't execute, or even because you were unlucky and dealing with all manner of tough breaks, it's because he's worthless. It's the ultimate fan cop out, blame the faceless guy. He's easier to replace than the HC or QB or a past, present or future probowler. It's just a truly insane cop out here because we win so much.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Well sad.

I would point to the coaching staff *under* Belichick as the biggest weakness on this team. The talent on offense and defense is absolutely loaded (yes, the defense is loaded), Dante is solid, but people have to understand that Belichick isn't an overbearing micro-manager. Pees does have his own style and autonomy under Belichick, who gives a long leash.

Amazingly enough, this "talent" on the Patriots consistently underperforms when it goes to other teams.

Hmmmm. Perhaps the coaching is better here?

 

[maverick4]

Curious to see how the results of this poll evolve after the game. Currently it's at 22/53/23%.

 

[maverick4]

I've been thinking about Pees some more the past few weeks.

I think the biggest thing, and let me know if you disagree on this, is that the opposing QB knows if we are in man/zone, or are blitzing. There is no deception based the way we line up for every play. We rarely see LB's or corners lined up right at scrimmage, just to give the QB and his O-line something more to think about, and possibly cause one or two more mistakes per game. Also, that extra cushion we routinely give corners isn't helping us tackle better, so why not just play press and also show fake blitz a lot more?

 

[SVN]

Give pees rodney,vrabel,seymour,bruschi,phifer,ty law in their prime and then we can debate.
Or give romeo deltha oneal and wilhite and co and we can debate. its always about the players. We still have BB and brady but not the same other players.

 

[Kontradiction]

I've been thinking about Pees some more the past few weeks.

I think the biggest thing, and let me know if you disagree on this, is that the opposing QB knows if we are in man/zone, or are blitzing. There is no deception based the way we line up for every play. We rarely see LB's or corners lined up right at scrimmage, just to give the QB and his O-line something more to think about, and possibly cause one or two more mistakes per game. Also, that extra cushion we routinely give corners isn't helping us tackle better, so why not just play press and also show fake blitz a lot more?

I think the biggest thing is that Pees has one single piece of talent in the LB corps, Mayo, to work with and a defensive line that is not capable of generating a push without Seymour. At this point, the DB's simply look like sitting ducks out there... much the same way they did last season.

 

[maverick4]

Give pees rodney,vrabel,seymour,bruschi,phifer,ty law in their prime and then we can debate.
Or give romeo deltha oneal and wilhite and co and we can debate. its always about the players. We still have BB and brady but not the same other players.

I think it's a big mistake to act as if that 01-04 talent was so good that that's why we won. The coordinators have to put players in position to succeed. The right scheme and play calls are what eventually made them legends.

Nobody wanted Rodney in 2002. Vrabel was a backup Steelers linebacker. Phiper was a pickup nobody else wanted. We won when Ty Law was out nearly an entire season. Bruschi was also undersized and could be overpowered by a guard or physical back.


There is a TON of talent on the current defense. The scheme and calls are neutering the talent we have on the field. When is the last time you saw the linebackers all up at the line of scrimmage, to confuse the QB?

 

[Deus Irae]

I think the biggest thing is that Pees has one single piece of talent in the LB corps, Mayo, to work with and a defensive line that is not capable of generating a push without Seymour. At this point, the DB's simply look like sitting ducks out there... much the same way they did last season.

Belichick moved veteran starters from the D-Line, linebacking corps AND the defensive secondary, and none of the replacements are upgrades. People here will throw the coordinator under the bus, but that's just par for the course. The only place the defense has upgraded is at safety, and that's not enough to make up for the problems of last season plus the additional offseason losses. For everyone who's blaming Pees, the question needs to be "Why did you expect a better defense with lesser personnel?". It's easy to blame the coordinator when you ignore everything involved in the situation.

 

[maverick4]

People here will throw the coordinator under the bus, but that's just par for the course. It's easy to blame the coordinator when you don't know enough about the game to look beyond the very basics.

Why do you keep pretending that criticizing the scheme and play calling is the easy blame? Putting the blame on personnel, or blocking, is the LAZY way to evaluate a game.

 

[Kontradiction]

Why do you keep pretending that criticizing the scheme and play calling is the easy blame? Putting the blame on personnel, or blocking, is the LAZY way to evaluate a game.

LOL! I agree that O'Brien's play calling was just a tad on the predictable side last night (particularly that draw play to Faulk that we have since ran into the ground), but are you seriously going to blame Brady getting hit everytime he dropped back last night on O'Brien instead of the offensive line? Seriously?

 

[chris66]

This defense doesnt have the horses to win a superbowl

 

[JackBauer]

I think BOB deserves a lot more heat than Pees.

As for the defense, it's a lot more murky as to whether the issue is personnel or coaching. There definitely seems to be a lack of veteran leadership that's hurting the team, that much is evident.

 

[SVN]

I think it's a big mistake to act as if that 01-04 talent was so good that that's why we won. The coordinators have to put players in position to succeed. The right scheme and play calls are what eventually made them legends.

Nobody wanted Rodney in 2002. Vrabel was a backup Steelers linebacker. Phiper was a pickup nobody else wanted. We won when Ty Law was out nearly an entire season. Bruschi was also undersized and could be overpowered by a guard or physical back.


There is a TON of talent on the current defense. The scheme and calls are neutering the talent we have on the field. When is the last time you saw the linebackers all up at the line of scrimmage, to confuse the QB?

its one thing to ask the LB's to ask to do something and thembeing able to do it and then get back in position. if you listen to BB wired for sound in the miami game, he is constantly asking the players to press the WR Bess and asking them to move around the LOS etc. But the players arent sure about getting in position so they they dont as much. Exp helps and smart players help. lets not trivialize vrabel for e.g as just another player who played well because of crennel. He fit our scheme and our scheme fit him. it goes both ways not just exceptional coordinators with ordinary talent.
Look at MN. Anyone think childress is agreat coach ? Give me jared allen on this team and see the pass rush improve and see how our D plays. At some point after the playcall and scheme, you have to win one on one battles and have a knack of playmaking like bruschi and vrabel had and we dont do that consistently.

 

[maverick4]

LOL! I agree that O'Brien's play calling was just a tad on the predictable side last night (particularly that draw play to Faulk that we have since ran into the ground), but are you seriously going to blame Brady getting hit everytime he dropped back last night on O'Brien instead of the offensive line? Seriously?

Yes I do think it's more scheme and play-calling related than it is talent/personnel. Look at our 01-04 talent on O-line, it was pathetic compared to the O-line now but they got the job done, 0 sacks on Brady in the 2003 Superbowl.

It is scheme and play-call related because an opposing defense gets MUCH better when it knows you are passing the ball. We run shot gun for 75% of our passes. This makes it so easy for DE's, corners, and safeties to not even worry about the run, it improves their pass coverage and pass rush immensely.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

Pees is not a very good DC but then again he is not leaving receivers open like Wilhite is, so he has no control over the lack of talent that is the 2009 Patriot secondary over the second half of the season.

 

[maverick4]

Pees is not a very good DC but then again he is not leaving receivers open like Wilhite is, so he has no control over the lack of talent that is the 2009 Patriot secondary over the second half of the season.

Disagree. The blown coverages are also due to the scheme and play calls.

We routinely make not only good QB's, but crappy QB's, look good since 2004.

A lot of this has to do with how obvious we make it for the QB to know if we are in man/zone, and who is blitzing.

Those huge cushions by the CB's are obviously not helping them tackle better, so why not press at the line a lot more.

 

[Xplicit]

hey CB's...you LOOK WHEN THE WR LOOKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jesus just terrible

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

I'm not sure about Pees but at this point I'm almost convinced we can't with O'brien the way he is right now. That guy needs to get a clue