Can this team win a ring with Pees at coordinator?

[MoLewisrocks]

Not sure if you have general issues with comprehension, but I said that even if you absolve him from the 07 game, he still has a history since 06 of his units not coming through, or Belichick not showing confidence in Pees' ability.

In 07 we won the 18 games you seem to want to gloss over while grudgingly absolving him on the loss of the 19th. In 2006 we had gaping holes and injuries on both sides of the ball and still won 12 games and went to the AFCC. In 2008 we had a hodgepoge old, slow, young, inexperienced defense fronting a QB who hadn't started since HS. This year Brady is back in a process and the defense is in fullblown transition.

Pees has been her for 5 seasons now and DC for 4. When exactly has Bill not shown confidence in his ability??

Quit playing the coordinator blame game. That dog won't hunt on a team that's 46-12 in their tenure inspite of all that...unless you're NEM.

 

[patsfan-1982]

he is not the best DC in the NFL but he is not that bad i think he is pretty good

the pats are #2 in point's allowed

he has a guy that was a cast off by the lions and is now #3 in the NFL in INT's in Leigh Bodden

Brandon McGowan was a jag with the bears he is on pace for 100 tackles with the pats and is playing better then he's stats say


Gary Guyton was a undrafted FA and i think he is playing better then mayo right now a top 10 pick

TBC befor this year had 12 Career sack's in 6 season's he is on pace this year for 9 sack's

the way i see it he has guy's playing better then they ever have befor so he cant be that bad of a DC

 

[maverick4]

In 2006 we had gaping holes and injuries on both sides of the ball and still won 12 games and went to the AFCC. In 2008 we had a hodgepoge old, slow, young, inexperienced defense fronting a QB who hadn't started since HS. This year Brady is back in a process and the defense is in fullblown transition.

The talent on defense has always been good, it's silly that you try to diminish it. In 06 the strength of the team was its defense, it was top 3 in points allowed.

However, even with good points allowed rankings (showing that the talent on the D is there), the past few years the 3rd down and red zone D has been among the league's worst, even this year... suggesting it isn't talent but a scheme or play calling issue.

Even this year the Pats were #2 in points allowed before the Colts game, and yet the D started playing passively in the 4th quarter (as we've seen multiple times before) and the result wasn't a surprise.

 

[BradyFTW!]

In 07 we won the 18 games you seem to want to gloss over while grudgingly absolving him on the loss of the 19th. In 2006 we had gaping holes and injuries on both sides of the ball and still won 12 games and went to the AFCC. In 2008 we had a hodgepoge old, slow, young, inexperienced defense fronting a QB who hadn't started since HS. This year Brady is back in a process and the defense is in fullblown transition.

Pees has been her for 5 seasons now and DC for 4. When exactly has Bill not shown confidence in his ability??

Quit playing the coordinator blame game. That dog won't hunt on a team that's 46-12 in their tenure inspite of all that...unless you're NEM.

Forget about 2006. Mav has already admitted that the SB loss in 2007 isn't Pees' fault. If it's not Pees' fault, then 2007 answers the stupid premise of this thread. There's nothing left to debate, if that wasn't Pees fault (and since Maverick will claim that that game was McDaniels' fault to his death...)

 

[mgteich]

I agree that Pees is an OK coordinator who has been doing reasonably well. I think the realquestion is why Belichick has not wanted top coaches on his staff. He is quite OK with pretty average coaches. The sad thing is that Pees is one of our better coaches, probably third after belichick and dante.

I have never understood the direction Belichick has taken with the coaching staff.

We are one of the top 5 defenses in the NFL this year. Some would say that Pees has done this with not a lot of experienced talent.

On the offense, we have some of the best talent every to play in the NFL. And yet, we plahy our opponents even in the 2nd half and we three teams beat us after being ahead at the half this year. I don't think belichick has allowed that many to get away since he's been here.

Not to mention, this is now Pees' 4th year as DC, if Belichick didn't think he was good he would have moved on.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I agree that Pees is an OK coordinator who has been doing reasonably well. I think the realquestion is why Belichick has not wanted top coaches on his staff. He is quite OK with pretty average coaches. The sad thing is that Pees is one of our better coaches, probably third after belichick and dante.

I have never understood the direction Belichick has taken with the coaching staff.

We are one of the top 5 defenses in the NFL this year. Some would say that Pees has done this with not a lot of experienced talent.

On the offense, we have some of the best talent every to play in the NFL. And yet, we plahy our opponents even in the 2nd half and we three teams beat us after being ahead at the half this year. I don't think belichick has allowed that many to get away since he's been here.

what are you talking about? McDaniels, Weis, and Crennel were all considered top guys while they were coordinators for us. Even Mangini was, although that was undeserved. It's not that Belichick doesn't want top talent, it's that he places a lot of value on promoting internally and creating continuity within the Pats' system, and he knows that the guys in the Pats' pipeline have a lot of talent.

 

[mgcolby]

Is there a Coordinator that you have ever liked?

Josh leaves, and there isn't enough data to bash the current OC, given the short time period. Although 2nd half scoring/team performance sucks. So you start on Pees?

You seriously need to get over it!

BB hasn't fired him....End of story! (and this works at any coaching, scouting or personnel position within the organization) If you have a problem with any coach, scout or front office guy then you believe that you are smarter than BB!

I'm willing to bet my entire house, life savings and valuables that no one on here knows more about coaching, building and winning in the NFL than BB!

Get over yourselves!

 

[RayClay]

Pees had 4 interceptions last week.

 

[Joker]

Pees carries out the game plan..it is always ULTIMATELY BB's responsibilty

Relax

you clowns pick on Wilhite??? He's light years ahead of Ellis Hobbs

get a grip

 

[flyonthewall]

The talent on defense has always been good, it's silly that you try to diminish it. In 06 the strength of the team was its defense, it was top 3 in points allowed.

However, even with good points allowed rankings (showing that the talent on the D is there), the past few years the 3rd down and red zone D has been among the league's worst, even this year... suggesting it isn't talent but a scheme or play calling issue.

Even this year the Pats were #2 in points allowed before the Colts game, and yet the D started playing passively in the 4th quarter (as we've seen multiple times before) and the result wasn't a surprise.

The talent was great in 03 and 04. In 06 it was good, but was already showing signs of slowing down (hence the media always talking about how the pats d was too old and slow). The gassed/cramping defense in the second half of the AFC championship game was a good example of this. This problem only got worse in 07 and 08. This is the reason that this years team is almost entirely new faces. If BB agreed with your assessment than we would have seen an overhaul in the defensive coaching staff rather than in the defensive personnel.

2006 had a very experienced yet past their prime defense. This year has a very young/talented yet inexperienced defense. The 03 and 04 defenses had both.

 

[Patjew]

Question should be can the Pats win another super bowl without a shutdown corner.

They did in 2004.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I said "Yes" because "Defense Wins Championships" and the other two answers, to me at least, mean I'm giving up on winning the SB this year, which I most certainly am not doing.

I think this Defense has come together this year as well as or better than anyone could have expected, given the personnel changes and lack of experience at key positions. It's no indictment of them that they couldn't stop Peyton Manning; few can. I'm glad they had that experience during the regular season and hopefully can learn from it for the Playoffs.

I'm more concerned that the O line be fully healthy and continue improving its run blocking, which has been quite good at times. We've had a chance now to see the difference that a couple of ten yard runs can make to a drive and to the passing game.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

In 07 we won the 18 games you seem to want to gloss over while grudgingly absolving him on the loss of the 19th. In 2006 we had gaping holes and injuries on both sides of the ball and still won 12 games and went to the AFCC. In 2008 we had a hodgepoge old, slow, young, inexperienced defense fronting a QB who hadn't started since HS. This year Brady is back in a process and the defense is in fullblown transition.

Pees has been her for 5 seasons now and DC for 4. When exactly has Bill not shown confidence in his ability??

Quit playing the coordinator blame game. That dog won't hunt on a team that's 46-12 in their tenure inspite of all that...unless you're NEM.

Well said, Mo.

 

[Sicilian]

The talent on defense has always been good, it's silly that you try to diminish it. In 06 the strength of the team was its defense, it was top 3 in points allowed.

However, even with good points allowed rankings (showing that the talent on the D is there), the past few years the 3rd down and red zone D has been among the league's worst, even this year... suggesting it isn't talent but a scheme or play calling issue.

Even this year the Pats were #2 in points allowed before the Colts game, and yet the D started playing passively in the 4th quarter (as we've seen multiple times before) and the result wasn't a surprise.

You can't use points allowed as simply an indicator of talent. What goes into points allowed is talent AND coaching. Pees contributes to the success or failure of this defense a great deal, so if you're saying being 3rd in points allowed is the sign of a good defense, you have to believe Pees is a good coordinator.

 

[maverick4]

I agree that Pees is an OK coordinator who has been doing reasonably well. I think the realquestion is why Belichick has not wanted top coaches on his staff. He is quite OK with pretty average coaches. The sad thing is that Pees is one of our better coaches, probably third after belichick and dante.

I have never understood the direction Belichick has taken with the coaching staff.

We are one of the top 5 defenses in the NFL this year. Some would say that Pees has done this with not a lot of experienced talent.

On the offense, we have some of the best talent every to play in the NFL. And yet, we plahy our opponents even in the 2nd half and we three teams beat us after being ahead at the half this year. I don't think belichick has allowed that many to get away since he's been here.

Well sad.

I would point to the coaching staff *under* Belichick as the biggest weakness on this team. The talent on offense and defense is absolutely loaded (yes, the defense is loaded), Dante is solid, but people have to understand that Belichick isn't an overbearing micro-manager. Pees does have his own style and autonomy under Belichick, who gives a long leash.

 

[Rob0729]

The talent on defense has always been good, it's silly that you try to diminish it. In 06 the strength of the team was its defense, it was top 3 in points allowed.

However, even with good points allowed rankings (showing that the talent on the D is there), the past few years the 3rd down and red zone D has been among the league's worst, even this year... suggesting it isn't talent but a scheme or play calling issue.

Even this year the Pats were #2 in points allowed before the Colts game, and yet the D started playing passively in the 4th quarter (as we've seen multiple times before) and the result wasn't a surprise.

Wait a second! For the last 2 1/2 years, you have blamed McDaniels for the loss against Indy in the AFC Championship Game. Now it is that Pees took his foot off the gas pedal in the fourth quarter?

I blame the defense for the loss in that game, but I blame the fact that they didn't have the personnel to cover Dallas Clark in that game.

 

[maverick4]

You can't use points allowed as simply an indicator of talent. What goes into points allowed is talent AND coaching. Pees contributes to the success or failure of this defense a great deal, so if you're saying being 3rd in points allowed is the sign of a good defense, you have to believe Pees is a good coordinator.

I agree that Pees can't be a bad coach given the D's performance over the years. I also don't think all above avg coordinators can win a ring given enough talent, though.

Marty Schottenheimer is a good coach with a winning record, but I don't think people would say he's just had an entire career of bad luck in the playoffs.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I agree that Pees can't be a bad coach given the D's performance over the years. I also don't think all above avg coordinators can win a ring given enough talent, though.

Marty Schottenheimer is a good coach with a winning record, but I don't think people would say he's just had an entire career of bad luck in the playoffs.

What the hell does Marty Schottenheimer have to do with coordinators? He is completely irrelevant to this conversation. And no, I wouldn't say that he has bad luck to blame for everything, but I also think that he's a pretty good coach who is capable of winning a SB. He's just not very likely to. Most coaches never win a SB, but it's not because none of them are capable. Equating "can" with "will" is an enormous logical fallacy on your part.

 

[flyonthewall]

I agree that Pees can't be a bad coach given the D's performance over the years. I also don't think all above avg coordinators can win a ring given enough talent, though.

Marty Schottenheimer is a good coach with a winning record, but I don't think people would say he's just had an entire career of bad luck in the playoffs.

Maverick4, you didn't address my post (pg7) regarding your assessment of the talent on D. You can't just give a blanket label of there being good talent all along without address the fact the the strengths/weaknesses & personnel of the teams dating back to 2003 have been very much different.

I agree with you that this years team is loaded with talent and potential, but majority of the players are also very young and inexperienced. The 06-08 teams were the exact opposite and had a lot of players with great experience/leadership but who were past their prime physically. What we had in 03 and 04 were teams with BOTH talent and experience. There is a strong correlation between this and how well a defense regularly performs in clutch situations, red zone, big third downs, etc.

 

[flyonthewall]

From 06-08 I felt like we had to win a championship before we ran out of time because despite their phenomenal experience and leadership, each passing year meant that the defense was one more year past their prime physically.

What excites me about this years defense is that the trend has reversed. They are probably the most physically gifted (and youngest) defense that we have had in a long time and we get to look forward to them getting better through time (experience).

Once this defense reaches the point of having both talent and experience then I think it will be fair to evaluate it relative to the 03-04 teams. Until then it is apples and oranges so you can't just say same talent, different DC, therefore blame the DC.