Calling Burgess a LB

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Nov 29th

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Ring 6

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Reiss said that in his best stretch he was used almost exclusively in that role, implying that he was not used exclusively in that role at other times.
No, thats not what he said, he said he looked at his best stretch and found that is how he played. The implication you see doesnt exist.
Its like saying I watched Brady the last 4 games, they were his best stretch, and he lined up at QB every play. That implies he lined up somewhere else in the other 12?
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
Pretty much. Yet Reiss singled out those four games.

Semantics, semantics.

What is your point?
Reiss singled out those 4 games because his production was better and there was a belief that he would improve as he 'learned the system'.
 

RayClay

Hall of Fame Poster
What is your point?
Reiss singled out those 4 games because his production was better and there was a belief that he would improve as he 'learned the system'.

Would you like me to be your straw man? OK.

*Burgess should be a full time OLB![/Strawman]*

He's obviously better at what he has done his whole career.

Has he been used otherwise to the detriment of his effectiveness? I guess to say he's been almost exclusively at something the last four games implies that.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
Many don't like calling Burgess a linebacker. Perhaps it is better to have a position called
OLB/DE/passrusher. It would seem that Burgess and Cunningham fit that role, and perhaps Ninkovich.

DE 3
NT 2
DT 1
----------------------
OLB/DE 2
----------------------
ILB 3
OLB 3
ST/dvlpmental 1
----------------------
THIS SEASON COMPARED TO LAST - MY TAKE
A) Spikes and McKenzie replace Alexander and Seau, taking the open ILB and ST positions
B) Cunningham takes the roster spot of Thomas
C) Burgess, Woods and Ninkovich are back.
D) Mayo is healthy.
E) The inside should be much improved, especially with the addition of a vet DT.
F) Crable could beat out Burgess or Ninkovich or be a 16th front 7 player, or not.
G) We could keep a 7th defensive lineman, or not.
H) By Game One, we likely won't have 16 front seven players that we want to keep; an injury or two will take care of that (as is normal).



-----------------------

I dont think its hard to define Burgess' postion.
In the 3-4 base he is an OLB. Thats the only spot he really could play. In the base 34 he is not close to good enough at that position to get on the field for meaningful snaps.
In the nickle and dime, like most of our OLBs he plays DE. He is much better at that role, and was on the field most of the time in those alignments.
His position is the same as Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, Rosevelt Colvin, TBC, Pierre Woods, Matt Chatham............
The reason confusion exists is that people dont realize his skillset leaves him off the field in the base 34.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
Would you like me to be your straw man? OK.

*Burgess should be a full time OLB![/Strawman]*

He's obviously better at what he has done his whole career.

Has he been used otherwise to the detriment of his effectiveness? I guess to say he's been almost exclusively at something the last four games implies that.

I still dont understand what your point is, and the post here makes no sense to me.
To call it a Strawman means I am trying to argue that he is not a full time OLB, and that isn't even the argument you are making. Obvioulsy we have reached the point where no one would even try to make that argument to begin with. More importantly, my retort was responding to your claim that comments about where he lined up in 4 games implies he must have done something else in the other 12, which is simple off the mark.
 

Deus Irae

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club
PatsFans.com Supporter
first of all, you're about as close to the target here as in every other post --- I'm very lazy.

secondly, I have tabulated and broken down snaps already in a burgess thread, as well as some thread about wilhite, or whatever it was, so I think I've taken my turn, and as I couldn't give a crap about this particular subject or the endless bickering you seem to live for, I'll have to leave it to you.

spend the time on bringing info to the thread that you'd normally spend spamming it with irrelevant bickering, would be my suggestion.

Irony...... writ large.
 

RayClay

Hall of Fame Poster
I still dont understand what your point is, and the post here makes no sense to me.
To call it a Strawman means I am trying to argue that he is not a full time OLB, and that isn't even the argument you are making. Obvioulsy we have reached the point where no one would even try to make that argument to begin with. More importantly, my retort was responding to your claim that comments about where he lined up in 4 games implies he must have done something else in the other 12, which is simple off the mark.

I have no point. I never said Burgess was the answer at OLB, yet that's what everyone is assuming in argument. Burgess is much better at what he has done his whole career, I agree.

I don't think we are abandoning the 3-4 so we can accommodate Burgess, yet he has gotten a very high percentage of snaps somehow.

I don't know how, but they haven't all been against the Colts.

I try not to say the word "never" myself, because then I'd get into more of these endless, pointless arguments.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
I have no point. I never said Burgess was the answer at OLB, yet that's what everyone is assuming in argument. Burgess is much better at what he has done his whole career, I agree.

I don't think we are abandoning the 3-4 so we can accommodate Burgess, yet he has gotten a very high percentage of snaps somehow.

I don't know how, but they haven't all been against the Colts.

I try not to say the word "never" myself, because then I'd get into more of these endless, pointless arguments.

Somehow is that we play nickel or dime on over half the snaps.
I think thats the disconnect you have. You appear to think that this is like 1978 when your base D played everything except 3rd and long.
We play nickel/dime sometimes on 1st down more often than not on second and often on 3rd. Add in snaps when we are well ahead or in the final 2-3 minutes of a half, and the guy who comes in to replace the 'starter' when we are in nickel/dime gets more snaps than the guy who only plays in the base and comes out in nickel and dime./
 

RayClay

Hall of Fame Poster
Somehow is that we play nickel or dime on over half the snaps.
I think thats the disconnect you have. You appear to think that this is like 1978 when your base D played everything except 3rd and long.
We play nickel/dime sometimes on 1st down more often than not on second and often on 3rd. Add in snaps when we are well ahead or in the final 2-3 minutes of a half, and the guy who comes in to replace the 'starter' when we are in nickel/dime gets more snaps than the guy who only plays in the base and comes out in nickel and dime./

Fine. He played a lot more than half the snaps sometime.

I basically don't disagree that he's more comfortable and better at DE, is used more there and is not in line to be a permanent answer at OLB.

In fact, he's unlikely to be a permanent answer at anything. I proposed that saying he never did or never will be used at OLB was a bit of a stretch and i still doubt that is the case.

You appear to think that this is like 1978

You needn't go back that far to find when we had versatile linebackers. Try 2003-4
 
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Ring 6

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Fine. He played a lot more than half the snaps sometime.

I basically don't disagree that he's more comfortable and better at DE, is used more there and is not in line to be a permanent answer at OLB.

In fact, he's unlikely to be a permanent answer at anything. I proposed that saying he never did or never will be used at OLB was a bit of a stretch and i still doubt that is the case.



You needn't go back that far to find when we had versatile linebackers. Try 2003-4
That isnt the point.
You said you didnb't understand how he played half the snaps. Versatility has nothing to do with that answer. Our OLBs in 03-04 played about half their snaps at nickel/dime DE and the other half in the base.
Burgess is good at the nickel/dime role, and poor at the base OLB role.
Never did or never will is technically inaccurate, because that is the position he would play in the base if we needed him to. Sometimes injuries will cause that. Sometimes we do something creative.

Again, he IS an OLB in the 34, he is just a very bad one.
34 OLBs on our team line up as DEs in the nickel and dime, and he is miuch better at that role.
I guess you could equate him somewhat to Kevin Faulk who plays and does very well in passing situations, from passing formations, and whose position is RB but you won't see him lined up in the I unless there is an emergency. Same with Burgess, good at some of the resposnsibilities, not suited for others.
 

RayClay

Hall of Fame Poster
That isnt the point.
You said you didnb't understand how he played half the snaps.

No I didn't.

You said half, check how many snaps he actually played in games.

If Pierre Woods is our only true 3-4 linebacker with TBC, then we hardly play 3-4 at all.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
Fine. He played a lot more than half the snaps sometime.

I basically don't disagree that he's more comfortable and better at DE, is used more there and is not in line to be a permanent answer at OLB.

In fact, he's unlikely to be a permanent answer at anything. I proposed that saying he never did or never will be used at OLB was a bit of a stretch and i still doubt that is the case.



You needn't go back that far to find when we had versatile linebackers. Try 2003-4

It sounds like you are missing the fact that OLB in the base and DE in the sub is essentially the same position, that is the guy who lines up as 34 OLB lines up as DE in the sub, or in this case, 2 guys share the job.
Since our OLB lines up as a DE in the sub, and we are in the sub half or more of the snaps, you could theoretically call Burgess the starter at OLB I guess, even thought he never plays a true LB spot, but its really semantics.
Until we get past the idea that its 1 job split into 2 roles currently, confusion will rule.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
No I didn't.

You said half, check how many snaps he actually played in games.

If Pierre Woods is our only true 3-4 linebacker with TBC, then we hardly play 3-4 at all.

Just about half, probably a little more.
What are you arguing now? Are you still trying to say we line up in a base 34 and Burgess is playing OLB, despite the fact that it just didnt happen?
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
That settles that. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Let's see how Cunningham adapts in his first camp.

Settles what? You now agree that if he was on the field in the base it would be at OLB but he is never on the field in the base because he is poor as a 34 OLB?
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
Whatever you want to argue against is fine with me, just leave me out of it.

OK, I'll just chalk this one up to you wanted to say something but don't want to explain what you mean. Why did you bother?
 

AzPatsFan

Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal
In every draft we have people select college OLBs as their mock draftees, and then are angry when Belichick never picks them. Belichick has said. " I take college DEs and make my 3-4 OLBs out of them (DE-->OLB); and take big college OLBs with mobility and toughness against the run, and convert them, to make ILBs out of them.

Consider the present OLBs Are there any that were not DEs in college? NO!
TBC DE;
Crabel DE & some OLB;
Cunningham DE;
Burgess DE;
Woods DE & some OLB;
Ninkovich DE;

What is so special about pacing one of their best passrushers and being saved for Pass rushing opportunities?

As for the ILBs look at what their college backgrounds are.
Mayo ILB & OLB;
Guyton ILB & OLB;
McKenzie ILB & OLB
Spikes ILB;
 
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