C Koppen, WR Tate Suffer Injuries

[BradyFTW!]

Ah but you work for the turf industry.

Exactly, which is why his opinion (unlike yours) is informed and relevant.

Why do players hate it then?

They don't.

Watson said it was as hard as a rock.

Citation? Don't think he ever said that.

Every game the Patriots lose a starter because of that damn turf. Morri,s, Taylor, Mayo, and no Koppen.

So we've lost four starters in five home games. Which makes it mathematically impossible that "every game the Pats lose a starter".

Sure players still get injured on grass, but the injuries are not as bad. When you plant and hit on that leg, the foot does not move on turf but it is going to move a half inch on grass at least. A half inch is a big deal when you are talking about tendons.

You have no idea wtf you're talking about.

 

[jbb9s]

Ah but you work for the turf industry. Why do players hate it then? Watson said it was as hard as a rock. Every game the Patriots lose a starter because of that damn turf. Morri,s, Taylor, Mayo, and no Koppen. Sure players still get injured on grass, but the injuries are not as bad. When you plant and hit on that leg, the foot does not move on turf but it is going to move a half inch on grass at least. A half inch is a big deal when you are talking about tendons.

Sorry dude. I don't work for the turf industry and I really have no vested interest in the financial success of the company. You should read the medical reports that you can find on the web, including at the site I posted in my original post. I am telling you this stuff is engineered for safety.

As to your other points, I don't think any of them are relevant. The Watson quote you took out of context. He may have said "it was hard as a rock" when referring to a 2-drop day last year

 

[captain stone]

Some good news captain. Just heard on the radio Koppen was in the locker room today sans limp. Haven't heard anything on Tate.

Thanks; Koppen being allowed to be seen in the LR is def. good news. As for Tate, I didn't even know that he had been injured until I saw the thread title this AM. Doesn't sound too bad, though - knock wood.

 

[Nordberg]

Some good news captain. Just heard on the radio Koppen was in the locker room today sans limp. Haven't heard anything on Tate.

What is a sans limp?

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

What is a sans limp?

Sans = Without.

 

[Joker]

oh...when I saw sans limp I thought you were talking about my flaccid unit, the sansalimp...suks getting older

 

[captain stone]

Sorry dude. I don't work for the turf industry and I really have no vested interest in the financial success of the company. You should read the medical reports that you can find on the web, including at the site I posted in my original post. I am telling you this stuff is engineered for safety.

As to your other points, I don't think any of them are relevant. The Watson quote you took out of context. He may have said "it was hard as a rock" when referring to a 2-drop day last year

As long as we're mentioning the Pats' home field(turf), could you (and/or either ctpatsfan77 or cstjohn, I forget whom) give a more-informed-than-I opinion on how well the Gillette surface is holding, esp. considering the unprecedented manner in which it was assembled: immed. after their loss to the jesters, with only a bye week & a road game before its debut.

 

[jbb9s]

As long as we're mentioning the Pats' home field(turf), could you (and/or either ctpatsfan77 or cstjohn, I forget whom) give a more-informed-than-I opinion on how well the Gillette surface is holding, esp. considering the unprecedented manner in which it was assembled: immed. after their loss to the jesters, with only a bye week & a road game before its debut.

(1)Personally, I have watched every home game the Patriots have played since they installed the field - or at least partial amounts of each game - and I have never noticed the field "react" any differently than any other field. However, I must admit I have never been specifically watching for a difference either.

(2)If there was something funny about the field, I am sure they would have replaced it over the off season. If it is something that became apparent after an injury this season, as suggested by a poster on page 1 of this thread, I am sure that the (A) NFL (B) Player Union (C) Patriots (D) Bill Belichick (E) FieldTurf who warranties the product would spare no expense in remediation before stepping on the field again. I remember a pre-season game was cancelled after the field was determined to be unsafe a few years ago - I think Baltimore was involved - not pats.. (I was also at the UVA v. Mich State basketball game that was cancelled because ice under the arenas floor was creating condensation on the surface of the court which is another sports example of safety concerns in team sports).

(3) I wasn't there when it was installed at Gillette nor do I know what contractor (gen. management), subcontractor (direct install), union reps (yep the carpet layers put in claims on this sh!t), inspection agency (3rd party testing, architect (product spec), landscape architect (gravel blend spec), civil engineer (drainage), Fieldturf (consulting engineer) contributed to the project.

(4) The short time frame in which the field was installed is not an issue in my opinion. There is no specification that requires any kind of duration (example: concrete take 28 days to get to 90% strength, paint takes 3 hours to dry). Engineering fill ( different sized rocks that come from different quarries and blended to optimize drainage and subgrade support) are put down in layers of 4-6 inches. This rock is engineered and testing includes "gradation" and "sieve analysis" among other things.

Each layer is compacted to a PSI or PSF specification and testing, reviewed and approved by any engineer with a stamp. After the carpet its layed out and nailed down, the rubber infill is added and spread around with a gold cart pulling a huge rake.

You would be amazed how many thousands of lbs of rubber infill is used but it is evenly distributed. Again, the testing agency does tests, usually a GMAX type (basically a impact sensitivity test) at random locations selected by the 3rd party to the tune of 1 test per 100 SF or equal. Anyhow, if the tests report the surface is "too hard", more infill is added until the tests pass. The test results "pass" based on the discretion of FIELD TURF and the architect and owner.

After a couple games on any new field, high spots (spots missed by the rake being pulled by the golf cart) are kicked around or what not. This is something you see at a public high school not a NFL stadium as I would assume the grounds keeper there are better qualified than a high school landscaper. If you have ever run around on a new field, you sometimes dont even notice -explanation: these field are super flat (1/4" in 10 ft or less pitch) and graded to beat that standard which blows away what a traditional grass field could ever achieve.

(5) Field Turf reviews all testing and writes a letter of conformance before the field is ever stepped on by a player. They also enforce specifications that must be followed at all times.

(6)All testing research is done by third parties and some links can be found here. In interest of full disclosure, the links are provided by the most visible manufacturer of turf fields. These test reports are put together by researchers and university professors, etc.

http://www.fieldturf.com/football/safety/

 

[MassPats38]

As long as we're mentioning the Pats' home field(turf), could you (and/or either ctpatsfan77 or cstjohn, I forget whom) give a more-informed-than-I opinion on how well the Gillette surface is holding, esp. considering the unprecedented manner in which it was assembled: immed. after their loss to the jesters, with only a bye week & a road game before its debut.

I'm not going to attempt to field your question as I will not claim to have current personal knowledge of the surface. The link here is on field turf generally if you want the basic engineering on the surface.

This link has FAQs indicating no purchaser has made a warranty claim on an installation to date and specifically references Gilllette.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Proof???? How about Gene Upshaw's comments (http://www.grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_nfl_players_prefer/):

“This survey clearly demonstrates the increasingly strong preference of NFL players for top-quality natural grass playing surfaces. However, with five grass fields ranked among the League's 10 worst, this year's survey demonstrates that a grass surface alone is no guarantee of excellence.”

The article goes on to say:

As in past surveys, NFL players again indicated their overwhelming preference for grass fields, this year by 88.8% (up from 86.6% when last asked in 1998). The current NFL players also overwhelmingly believe that artificial surfaces also are more likely to contribute to injury 95.7% (up from 91.0% in 2000).
​

What the heck is going on here: is this forum dominated by Turf Flacks?
Thanks for beating me up you guys. WTF!!!

One thing I ask you all to do: carefully watch what happens when a player hits the turf instead of listening to the industry flacks.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Fred - You do realize that the new Field Turf is NOT the your father's ASTROTURF that was a half inch of plastic on top of concrete.


Also, please let us know which starter was lost during the Atlanta game. I am curious to know.

Could you also provide us the link to where Watson claimed that the new turf was like concrete?

I said it "seems like" a starter is lost every game on the horrid turf of Gillette.

The Watson quote was on WEEI shortly after it was installed. The idiot announcers (D & C I think) were shocked that Watson had upset their little illusion about how wonderful it is to play at Gillette.

So if turf is so great then why do players get "Turf Toe"? I have never heard of "Grass Toe". How about rug burns; never heard of grass burns. Sure guys will twist a knee on grass, but it will be worse on turf, much worse because the footing is so secure the does not move and something has to give, like a tendon. Didn't Light injure his knee on grass; do you really think he would be back if it happened on turf. I don't think so. I have never heard of grass causing staph infections. Turf; maybe (not sure on this but ripping off big chunks of skin cannot be good).

As far as Tom Brady liking the turf, QBs love it because of the footing and speed. I wonder if he still likes it after his injury.

I don't understand the fanatical-love guys have for turf; it is almost religious. It is "clean" looking; is that why you love it? Can you see the numbers better? Do you like the faster game on it? Is grass old fashion? Do you believe all the blather from the turf pimps? Why do you all defend it to the death?

Lastly I ask all of you to really, really watch when a guy hits the ground. When he hits on grass, he slides. When he lands on turf, he or part of his body sticks; the energy of the hit is not absorbed by grass, but by tendons.

Turf will never, ever be as good as grass because it is not ablative and does not pull out or divot. Maybe the rubber dust helps, but guys still stick to turf.

A guess the good side to grass is that Indy plays on it and gets banged up on it also.

 

[moosekill]

Proof???? How about Gene Upshaw's comments (http://www.grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_nfl_players_prefer/):

“This survey clearly demonstrates the increasingly strong preference of NFL players for top-quality natural grass playing surfaces. However, with five grass fields ranked among the League's 10 worst, this year's survey demonstrates that a grass surface alone is no guarantee of excellence.”

The article goes on to say:

As in past surveys, NFL players again indicated their overwhelming preference for grass fields, this year by 88.8% (up from 86.6% when last asked in 1998). The current NFL players also overwhelmingly believe that artificial surfaces also are more likely to contribute to injury 95.7% (up from 91.0% in 2000).
​

What the heck is going on here: is this forum dominated by Turf Flacks?
Thanks for beating me up you guys. WTF!!!

One thing I ask you all to do: carefully watch what happens when a player hits the turf instead of listening to the industry flacks.

Perfect grass is best, however, grass is very rarely perfect, when it isn't perfect field turf is better. That is why everyone is switching to turf.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Perfect grass is best, however, grass is very rarely perfect, when it isn't perfect field turf is better. That is why everyone is switching to turf.

and grass don't grow in the winter

 

[Satchboogie3]

I hate artificial grass. I mean, if you want a faster, less volatile surface, then sure, an artificial surface would be better... but why try to make it look like grass? Either spend the money and effort to keep a great grass field in top-notch condition or just get some rubber surface. What I can't stand is trying to mimic grass when its just a bunch of rubber.

I'm just a bit of a purist. I don't like the fact that people are actually starting to prefer fake grass over real grass. Soon we might not have any interaction with nature. We'll live in glass domes with everything made of synthetics; fake plants, fake trees, fake wood, fake fire place, etc. Sports used to be a bit about the outdoors, it used to be about playing a game outside on a grassy field. Now all of that is getting completely stripped away.

 

[HarkDawg]

It is Brady's SURFACE, He is the franchise..... he lobbied for it and received it.


Look at HIS RECORD on this surface and then come back and say



Holy ___________