PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Brady vs Belichick: The Verdict

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think he meant Ariens was mid. Then the coaching in Tampa got worse and he still made the playoffs. It certainly was a huge benefit that Brady had 20 years of great coaching to fall back on.

Bruce Arians is mid yes

Respectfully disagree. You don't win coach of the year award twice by being a mid HC.
 
 
Respectfully disagree. You don't win coach of the year award twice by being a mid HC.
Oh I didn't realize you were talking about Ariens too. I agree he was a better coach than people give him credit for too.
 
Well in CLE he took over a bad team that he gradually improved to the point of a playoff team with year-over-year progression. Eventually he got them to the playoffs. Then the bottom fell out the last year with the team moving and all. Over his first 3 years in CLE he had a losing record each time, but the overall direction was positive culminating in that great year 4 with a playoff win. He took over a 3-13 team and not everything is a quick turnaround. It was a slow build for him there. I don't hold that losing record against him for the first 3 years. The last year I chalk up to being a pretty tough situation to coach through with the team moving. They finished 5-11 but they actually started 3-1 and were still .500 when the owner announced the sale. That goes on his record as a losing season just the same though.

In NE, his first year here, he gutted the roster. They played parts of the year with less than 53 guys to help get the cap in order. Similar to CLE, he had a multi year plan in place and year 1 involved taking a step back to go forward. I don't fault him too much for that. The next year he started 0-2 with Bledsoe which is a blemish and definitely makes you ask the question of how much Brady was responsible, even at that stage of his career where he probably wasn't as good an overall player. It was 0-2 with 2 one-score losses, so not exactly like they were incompetent until Brady solved everything, but yeah it's question.

In his later NE years, he did an absolutely terrible job. That's why his record sucked. He was an awful GM over those last few years and the years preceding that. He made it worse by refusing to acknowledge it and properly rebuild like they needed. He chased stop gap QBs in the older, washed up Newton and low ceiling but NFL ready Mac Jones. He refused to go for the multi year rebuilds he did in CLE and NE and it left the roster mired in mediocrity until the bottom fell out his last year. His coaching circle dried up because he's 70+ years old and he didn't have a circle of trust to pull from because at a certain point they stopped developing coaches.
Coaches are not gods. They can't do anything they want.

If you don't think Modell interfering with big decisions was a big factor, then I don't know what to tell you. He wouldn't let Belichick move on from Kosar. That's why they were bad in 1993. As soon as they went with Testaverde, suddenly the Browns became good.

Remember, Kraft in 2001 was ready to fire Belichick for his decision to move on from Bledsoe.

Then in 2014 when Brady was 37, we drafted a QB for the future. People think it was wrong to do so. Belichick made the argument to Kraft. A lot of people think it was very very very wrong to start nurturing the QB of the future when your QB is 37. Belichick planned to replace Brady after Jimmy G's 4th year when Brady would have been 41. HOW WRONG OF HIM TO DO THIS!!!

The fact is, there was a lot of interference and a lot of rancor in 2017 and 2018. Kraft was again ready to fire Belichick for losing to the Eagles! Apparently, Belichick only saved his job by winning the Super Bowl again with a defensive performance for the ages. But that didn't stop the complaining and whining and the insistence that they spend as many resources as they had on weapons for Brady (a 1st, a 2nd [traded], a 4th [traded], a slew of free agents pass catchers (Demaryious Thomas, Ben Watson, Josh Gordon, Antonio Brown, Austin Seferian-Jenkins, not to mention the famous Mo Sanu, etc.). Why were they spending picks like drunken sailors (a trend which started with trading a #1 for Brandin Cooks)? To maximize the window for Super Bowls on a team that was getting very old (not just the QB). To top it off, they also lost 3 premium draft picks to an NFL scandal.

And in the midst of all this, the owner told Belichick that he would have to reinstall Guerrero's presence in the locker room after banning him, and this is something that even the players who hated Belichick (like Amendola) understood as undermining the entire coaching staff.

They traded picks for vets, lost picks to a scandal, and maxed out the cap for the first time in the Dynasty. Why? BECAUSE they were OLD.

You're going to slam Belichick for Cam Newton because Newton was too old? It was a Covid year. They didn't sign any FAs because they took the hit on the cap. This was a year to take the hit for the second Dynasty.

The rebuild began the next year. 2021. From your post, I'm assuming you think they should have tanked the season instead of winning 10 games? Good luck telling those Super Bowl winning vets to throw games. It was never going to happen.

People tend to forget that our defense from those years had slowed down a lot, we had 6 starters on D who couldn't run anymore (CB1, SS, FS, OLB, MLB, OLB, and the DE left in FA). We needed 7 new starters on defense, and that was part of the rebuild that began in 2021 and went through 2023 (Barmore, Judon, Dugger, Godchaux, Anfernee, Bentley, Gonzalez, Marcus Jones, Peppers). This defense looked pretty much rebuilt to me in 2023, though of course it could have used one more pass rusher.

This is the REBUILD.

On the offensive side, they tried and failed to rebuild the offensive line by bringing in 5 or 6 free agents over that span, and drafting Onwenu, Strange, J Andrews, Hines, Stauber, Mafi, Sow, etc. They spent 10 picks on OL, 5 of those were 1st through 4th round.

It was obvious they were rebuilding; I'm not sure how people missed that.
 
I'm so glad we have a thread to rekindle this discussion.

There has never been a Bill v Tom discussion here on PF. How dare you insinuate that there might be divisiveness among fans. How dare you!
 
He wasn’t forced to trade Jimmy G, he had to trade him
because his contract was up and they would have gotten nothing for him otherwise
Fake news

Brady went crying to Kraft because Jimmy was popping off telling other players that the Pats were his team now. BB was tired of Brady's BS with Alex Guerrero peddling TB12 to the players when Belichicks trainers prescribed what the team ordered. Brady created chaos and BB wanted Brady gone.

 
Respectfully disagree. You don't win coach of the year award twice by being a mid HC.
Kevin Stefanski who has a sub .500 record won COTY twice. Ron Rivera with a sub .500 record and only 3 playoff wins in 13 years won COTY twice. ****ty failures like Jason Garrett, Matt Nagy and Brian Daboll won COTY.

Meanwhile you have guys like Andy Reid who never won it
 
Kevin Stefanski who has a sub .500 record won COTY twice. Ron Rivera with a sub .500 record and only 3 playoff wins in 13 years won COTY twice. ****ty failures like Jason Garrett, Matt Nagy and Brian Daboll won COTY.

Meanwhile you have guys like Andy Reid who never won it
Similar thing with MVP in their attempts not to just make it an award that goes to the SB winning HC and/or SB winner they've managed to make the awards kind of useless.
 
Kevin Stefanski who has a sub .500 record won COTY twice. Ron Rivera with a sub .500 record and only 3 playoff wins in 13 years won COTY twice. ****ty failures like Jason Garrett, Matt Nagy and Brian Daboll won COTY.

Meanwhile you have guys like Andy Reid who never won it

Arians has a .617 winning percentage (80-48 in the regular season), 6-3 in the playoffs, and he's won a SB.

Stefanski, Rivera, Daboll, Garret, Nagy, the guys you just compared him to has neither a winning percentage in the regular season, in the playoffs or have won a SB.
 
Not that I want to go down this road, but I feel like this season was a reminder that sort of ends the "Belichick played no major role" debate: Let me know how Brady might have done under Mayo in any of those other seasons and whether or not they beat Seattle, Atlanta, the Rams (either meeting), etc.

Same with Jeff Fisher (who mailed it in down the stretch and didn't even know what players were on the team here). I don't see Fisher navigating the team down the stretch and giving Brady a chance to win those games. And I don't feel like even Brady could have overcome things and gone all the way under Mayo, either.

Good coaching matters. Great coaching+GOAT QB = dominance. Let's appreciate that era for what it was and be thankful it happened during our lifetimes.
Especially at the beginning of his career .. married at the hip after.,
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ian
There’s something I’ve always wondered about the mystique of Bill. Kraft is a billionaire and his chick is ok. Tommy is a God and his chick was ok. Bill was an absolute troll of a man … and pulled some awesome looking women. Definitely one would think way out of his league, as far as money and looks are concerned, I’m not sayin’.. I’m just sayin’
 
Call it a tie ..
This ^

You needed both for the dynasty, Brady offenses and BB defenses.

That being said BB and Weis drafted and developed Tom. He was far from a finished product when drafted. On a terrible team nobody outside of Michigan fans would even know who Brady was. The same way Bill wouldn’t have been as successful with Bledsoe at QB.

This whole “versus” thing is dumb.
 
There’s something I’ve always wondered about the mystique of Bill. Kraft is a billionaire and his chick is ok. Tommy is a God and his chick was ok. Bill was an absolute troll of a man … and pulled some awesome looking women. Definitely one would think way out of his league, as far as money and looks are concerned, I’m not sayin’.. I’m just sayin’
This is all a matter of taste and social level.

Brady was married to someone who literally made more money than any model in the history of the profession based on her looks. Belichick's girl ain't ever making that kind career out of her looks. She's cute, but Tom Brady could quite easily go to any college in the country and walk away with a 20 something that blows her out of the water. When he bagged Giselle it was right after she was dating Leo who was like the hearthrob for teens and 20 somethings in that era.

Likewise, Kraft married Myra in his 20's long before most of his success. He's now married to an ophthalmologist that is 33 years younger than him who has her own accomplished career and is very good looking at her age.

Bill's sort of the one that's doing a bit of the skeevy dumpster diving and doing the whole sugar daddy thing. Brady could get a girl like that. It's just not his style. Kraft probably could too, it just would be socially embarrassing for him with the crowds he runs with. I admire that Bill's just chasing tail and has the balls to not give AF.
 
Fake news

Brady went crying to Kraft because Jimmy was popping off telling other players that the Pats were his team now. BB was tired of Brady's BS with Alex Guerrero peddling TB12 to the players when Belichicks trainers prescribed what the team ordered. Brady created chaos and BB wanted Brady gone.

Wrong. Bb was never trading Brady. John lynch asked and bb laughed at him.
 
There’s something I’ve always wondered about the mystique of Bill. Kraft is a billionaire and his chick is ok. Tommy is a God and his chick was ok. Bill was an absolute troll of a man … and pulled some awesome looking women. Definitely one would think way out of his league, as far as money and looks are concerned, I’m not sayin’.. I’m just sayin’
Personality counts
 
Wrong. Bb was never trading Brady. John lynch asked and bb laughed at him.
BB traded Jimmy per Krafts orders. That is a fact.

Another reason for BB to make Brady leave. Fact. Kraft stated if it was up to him, Brady would stay or retire a NEP. Fact.
 
BB traded Jimmy per Krafts orders. That is a fact.

Another reason for BB to make Brady leave. Fact. Kraft stated if it was up to him, Brady would stay or retire a NEP. Fact.
It was up to him
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 6 – A Week Before the Draft
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/13
Patriots News 04-12, What To Watch For In The NFL Draft
MORSE: Pre-Draft Patriots News and Notes
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 5
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 5
Mark Morse
2 weeks ago
Patriots Part Ways with Another Linebacker as Offseason Roster Shake-Up Continues
Patriots News 04-05, Mock Draft 2.0, Patriots Look For OL Depth
MORSE: 18 Game Schedule and Other Patriots Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Mike Vrabel Press Conference at the League Meetings 3/31
MORSE: Smokescreens and Misinformation Leading Up to Patriots Draft
Back
Top