Brady and Moss names mentioned in rap lyrics

[apple strudel]

If I'm sitting here explaining what I see objectively, that could be called opinion, too, couldn't it?

Oh. My. *******. God. :ugh:

I don't have to pretend about anything. If I think a whole genre of music is inferior, it is to me, and I can tell you why I think that. If you can come up with a geometric equation proving the rap can stand up to other forms of music, be my guest. You can't prove a thing like that. If you want to analyze an artist, good luck being as objective as you think you should be in order to comment on that artist at all.

Well now, that's the point. You haven't shown inferiority in the least. You've shown personal taste. Congratulations! You achieved nothing at all.

I have an opinion, and we are playing off each other, aren't we?

It's not the opinion. Liking a thing and calling a thing inferior are different things entirely. One is an opinion, the other is not.

You could've just respected my opinion in the beginning, and we wouldn't still be talking about it.

For the millionth time, it's the baloney claim that an entire genre is somehow inferior just because you don't like it. It's the same spurious argument that was once applied to races and genders and it's as crap now as it was then. (Note: I'm not saying you're racist or sexist or anything, just that the form of the arguments is invalid.)

Instead, you feel the need for personnal attacks for some reason, which egg me on.

OK.

Several other people of the same ignorant clan have expressed the same sentiments as me in this thread.

The madding crowd.

Message boards are interesting because of different opinions, not because there is some upspoken rule that everyone needs to kiss each other's asses and agree on everything.

They are interesting when there are good arguments made. Nobody needs to sing kumbayah (SP, I'm sure).

If I told you that I thought that rap is a hard genre to master, I'd be lying.

This is an ignorant statement. If you could master it you'd be a millionaire. You're absolutely full of it, plain and simple.

I'm telling you the truth as I see it.

Words have meanings, but not the ones you thing they have. How can you write this with a straight face?

Just don't be a hypocrite.

I don't really think I am.

Lighten up.

Sure.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Apple Strudel, I think you are confusing "skill" with "opinion". Yes, it is purely "opinion" as to what type of music people like. It ISN'T a matter of opinion as to which types of music require more skill.

 

[Deus Irae]

For the millionth time, it's the baloney claim that an entire genre is somehow inferior just because you don't like it. It's the same spurious argument that was once applied to races and genders and it's as crap now as it was then. (Note: I'm not saying you're racist or sexist or anything, just that the form of the arguments is invalid.)

Again, on what basis do you assert that his claim is incorrect if your argument is that it's all subjective? If you're insisting that it's NOT subjective, then why can't you answer my questions regarding superiority and inferiority of Haiku v. free form and Classical v. rap?

 

[apple strudel]

ha, ha, ha. Classic. I'm the one that started that line of the conversation. You only differentiate between subjectivity vs. objectivity when it suits your purpose, which is to crap all over my opinion. You do the same things as I, yet you pretend not to. That's MY point.

Great drummers are great musicians. They are not inferior in the least. I think you're not following.

A lot of rappers rap to prerecorded machines...how's that for easy? Stepped over a lot of barriers there, didn't they?

The machines let you accomplish different things musically - different sounds. It's like crapping on a guitarist for use a distortion pedal.

 

[apple strudel]

Again, on what basis do you assert that his claim is incorrect if your argument is that it's all subjective? If you're insisting that it's NOT subjective, then why can't you answer my questions regarding superiority and inferiority of Haiku v. free form and Classical v. rap?

:ugh: Because there's no standard to apply. How do you get a consensus or prove it? That's exactly why it's a non-starter argument. It achieves nothing.

 

[glm]

Those of us who dislike rap are not arguing that rapping takes skill, we are arguing that it takes immensely less skill than many other forms of music.

Why are you trying to prove something that is completely subjective?

To be a great "rapper", what skills do you need?
You probably have to know a thing or two about rhythm, but I seriously doubt you need to know EVERYTHING about rhythm (simple & compound time, polyrhythms, complex cycles, syncopation, etc) and be able to play anything (switch meters with ease, etc).


You have to be able to write lyrics. So, yes, they are poets. I'll give them that. Do I think they are comparable to the best song writers (Great American Song Book, and the likes of Billy Joel, etc), No. Few have the knowledge (yes, I did just say that).

Again, completely subjective and your opinion.

And in ym opinion, I don't think Billy Joel or Great American Songbook can lyrically hold a candle to say Aesop Rock, Nas, Eminem, Immortle Technique etc.

Melody. Here is where the skills cease to exist in rap. I HIGHLY doubt that there is a single rapper out there that has mastered melody alone. (can sing every mode (major modes, minor modes, melodic minor modes) along with all the other different scales (altered scales, chord scales, Indian and other 'regional' scales)).

So what you're saying is that out of the millions of rappers that ever lived, not even at least one of them have mastered melody.

Seems like an ignorant thing to say.

Harmony. Here is something that is almost never found in rap music. Harmony is even MORE complex than melody. You have triads, tetrads, etc. You have counterpoint. You have enough theory and craft to cover to spend a lifetime mastering.

Read above.

Improvisation. This is what REALLY sets apart Jazz from anything else. Great Jazz artists take ALL the skills I've listed bellow (with some others, too) and use it to create music on the fly. It takes many many years of practice, study, experience, skill, and talent to improvise well over any conceivable piece of music. Most of the greats spend most waking hours practicing their skill.

See freestyle rapping.

Composition. Again, Rap doesn't compare to any great Jazz or Classical music. Jazz and Classical compositions are far more complex than anything you will ever find in Rap and it takes far more knowledge and skill to be able to understand it and compose music in those genres.

Because I'm sure rap is the only genre of music that doesn't compare to Jazz or Classical music in terms of composition.

Next thing you know, you're argue that let's say Jay Cutler is a horrible quarterback because he doesn't throw as many touchdowns as Tom Brady or Peyton Manning.

On top of just the knowledge, most of the great Jazz and Classical artists are proficient in more than one instrument. How many rappers do you know that are proficient in many instruments (including experts in at least one)?

Read above.

And I'd like to see the great Jazz and Classical artists write lyrics that are complex as say Aesop Rock's.

It simply doesn't take as much skill to be a great rapper as it does to be a great in many other genres. It's not even close.

Yay! Force your opinions on others! Go getem champ!

 

[apple strudel]

Apple Strudel, I think you are confusing "skill" with "opinion". Yes, it is purely "opinion" as to what type of music people like. It ISN'T a matter of opinion as to which types of music require more skill.

Yeah, you're kind of wrong there. I'd love to see McCoy Tyner try his hand at rap and see what comes of it. Nothing good, I'm sure.

 

[Satchboogie3]

This is an ignorant statement. If you could master it you'd be a millionaire. You're absolutely full of it, plain and simple.

Mastering a genre has NOTHING to do with making money. Brittney Spears makes a **** load of money...

It's a popularity contests with much pop and rap music. The guy who is stronger, tougher, and cooler is the one who will be more successful, not the most skilled. They are selling a product.

One of the most important attributes to great musicians (to me) is that they do THEIR thing, regardless of what people think of it. If a great musician makes an album that gets bad reviews, he doesn't think "Oh well, that's not going to make money, I better change". He thinks "Well, why do I give a crap what some idiot thinks? This is what music is to me. I could care less if you don't like it."

 

[Deus Irae]

:ugh: Because there's no standard to apply. How do you get a consensus or prove it? That's exactly why it's a non-starter argument. It achieves nothing.

Do you even have a clue what your argument was at this point?

 

[Satchboogie3]

Yeah, you're kind of wrong there. I'd love to see McCoy Tyner try his hand at rap and see what comes of it. Nothing good, I'm sure.

What are you basing that on? The fact that he isn't a thug? Could it possibly be that a guy like McCoy Tyner realizes that rap is a **** genre and isn't worth his time?

 

[glm]

I wonder which knew more about music?... The only skill I think some rappers posses that not all jazz musicians posses is the ability to talk fast... On the other hand, Jazz musicians poses many many more skills and are more knowledgeable about music.

I'll just flip that question around for you, too. I'm sure the "great" rappers are just as skilled at music as the pioneers of Jazz... right...

Or maybe, just hear me out on this.

The great rappers are better at their respective skills that the pioneers of Jazz, and the pioneers of Jazz are greater at their respective skills than the great rappers.

No, that's impossible . . .

 

[apple strudel]

What are you basing that on? The fact that he isn't a thug? Could it possibly be that a guy like McCoy Tyner realizes that rap is a **** genre and isn't worth his time?

Thug? You are ignorant. You might also be a racist. I hope not.

Here's a hint: you can't generalize about the practitioners of an entire genre like that and not be an idiot.

 

[glm]

What are you basing that on? The fact that he isn't a thug? Could it possibly be that a guy like McCoy Tyner realizes that rap is a **** genre and isn't worth his time?

Yaaaaaaaaaay.

Generalizations make you MUCH smawrtar.

 

[Deus Irae]

Uh, it's only a personal assessment, not a universal one. That's the point. It sucks for him, but no extrapolation can be made. And that is only an issue of personal taste. But he's making an argument as to quality of music ("bad music"). I.e., he's extrapolating beyond personal taste. And he's getting creamed for it. That's the point.

Yeah dude, you're missing the point. He tried to justify his subjective taste it with some objective criteria such as skill and ability. He may not like it, but it's not objectively bad by any measure. That's the point.

Well that's pretty much the problem, isn't it? You dismiss an entire genre by making "objective" arguments but really it's just opinion masquerading as analysis. Again, if you don't like it, fine. But don't begin to pretend the entire genre is inferior.

Because there's no standard to apply. How do you get a consensus or prove it? That's exactly why it's a non-starter argument. It achieves nothing.

?????????????????????

If there is no way to make an objective measurement because there's no standard to apply, how can you claim that "it's not objectively bad by any measure"?

 

[apple strudel]

?????????????????????

If there is no way to make an objective measurement because there's no standard to apply, how can you claim that "it's not objectively bad by any measure"?

:ugh: All the measures are subjective.

Edit: to talk a little more about how one evaluates art usually you get a relative comparison, such as who accomplished more, which was more dense, which was more influential, or which was more 'beautiful' or some such. This is exactly why arguments over who does and who does not enter the canon are so sticky and ongoing. But it's very hard to make objective evaluations of these things, so sticking with undisputed giants or conventional wisdom tends to ease a lot of this pain.

 

[Deus Irae]

:ugh: All the measures are subjective.

Then so is your assertion that he's wrong. Therefore, the question is: why the hell are you still going on and on about this?

Your argument is now this:


1.) Rap music is not inferior to other kinds of music.

2.) Furthermore, because there are no objective standards, he can't say that one kind of music is any better or worse than another, but I can say that it's not inferior.

3.) Because he claims that he's evaluating music on objective standards which I don't recognize AND he came to a different conclusion than I do, he is lazy minded.

 

[apple strudel]

Then so is your assertion that he's wrong. Therefore, the question is: why the hell are you still going on and on about this?

Your argument is now this:


1.) Rap music is not inferior to other kinds of music.

2.) Furthermore, because there are no objective standards, you can't say that one kind of music is any better or worse than another, but I can say that it's not inferior.

3.) Because he claims that he's evaluating music on objective standards which I don't recognize AND he came to a different conclusion than I do, he is lazy minded.

The insistence on objective standards that do not exist is what makes it lazy. What are the objective standards? How do we measure them? The answer is that in art you don't. That's the whole point. What's worse is trying to do it across genres. There used to be a whole lot of noise made about the inferiority of film making or photography to painting. Guess what happened to those arguments? People like Alfred Stieglitz and Luis Bunuel obsoleted them.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Free styling really can't be compared to improvising on an instrument with respect to music. The ONLY thing musical about freestyle rapping is the delivery of the words. Words themselves are not musical. Improvising on an instrument also includes melody and harmony, something, again, not present in free styling.

Rap has MUCH more in common with poetry than it does with music. The "good" rappers skill is in their lyrical composition, no? Thus, their main skill is in poetry, not music. They just happen to set their poetry to music. I mean, heck, rap basically originated from poets reciting their work in meter.

 

[glm]

Free styling really can't be compared to improvising on an instrument with respect to music. The ONLY thing musical about freestyle rapping is the delivery of the words. Words themselves are not musical. Improvising on an instrument also includes melody and harmony, something, again, not present in free styling.

Rap has MUCH more in common with poetry than it does with music. The "good" rappers skill is in their lyrical composition, no? Thus, their main skill is in poetry, not music. They just happen to set their poetry to music. I mean, heck, rap basically originated from poets reciting their work in meter.

Regardless of rap's origin, it's still music.

 

[Satchboogie3]

Also, my statement of "needing to be a thug" was because you implied that he would not be popular and I have argued that being popular is more to do with the artist image than their music. Also, the only thing that a rapper might do better than McCoy Tyner is in writing better lyrics... but again, that's not music, that's poetry.