Bill vs TCU game thread

[sb1]

He shoved Brady out the door with no backup plan so why trust him to handle another quarterback? Bill decided a broken down Cam Newton was the best option. Then he took Mac Jones and his popgun arm and flip-flopped him and Zappe for a couple seasons. We were supposed to trust him with another QB?

The myth of Bill being a QB whisperer was on full display as a myth Monday night. Bill's boy Gio Lopez was what 2 hours without completing a pass? Lololol

 

[Bill Lee]

The myth of Bill being a QB whisperer was on full display as a myth Monday night. Bill's boy Gio Lopez was what 2 hours without completing a pass? Lololol

Add that one to the "coaching up under-valued WRs" myth.

Edit: maybe some merit in coaching up JE11 as a slot receiver, but am not thinking of any true WR1 he created from whole cloth.

 

[Bill Lee]

That's what happens when you get the QB wrong. It's funny how hard this is to see for the "#AllBrady" crowd. Really all I've ever claimed is that I felt he deserved another shot with another QB.

How many shots does he deserve? He already had Jimmy G sized up to take the job, then Stidham, then Cam Newton, then Mac Jones, then Bailey Zappe.

I can explain some of mistakes without it meaning it's not his fault.

He was head coach and GM. It was his fault.

He was taking the biggest salary of any NFL team executive. The buck stopped with him.

I can/have explained what I think he was thinking when he moved on from Brady, as have you.

Even if we give him a mea culpa for that one, then if is is as great a coach as many insist he is, he should be able to find a QB after several years of trying, but he didn't.

Part of that was him also letting the OL degrade while using a lot of draft assets on defense, and deciding to replace Josh McDaniels as OC with Matt Patricia.

That's a 2 way street. Young kids haven't been exposed to a lot of that and for some it will be jarring. They can either rally behind Bill or panic.

How do you expect an 18-22 year old kid getting blasted on national TV to not panic, or to not at least start having major doubts?

I'd like to the vast majority won't panic after one game and that they've already learned enough about Bill and from Bill through the spring and summer that it would be easy to stand by behind him still. And their youth probably doesn't exactly embolden them to go against the man so quickly.

Your choice of terms such as panic and "go against" are as usual, "hot take" exaggerations to try to make a point.

We're talking about failure to build and/or erosion of confidence, not panic nor opposition.

Yeah well the players and coaches have to trust the process and if they are the right players they will and then they should be able to turn it around quickly especially vs the weaker teams. At least enough so to get to next year where you can use the lessons learned to weed out the problems and bring in a second crop of your guys.

It's a team sport. You need at least 22 players to all be the right players and rally to the flag.

If they don't have the core skills to compete at the NCAA level it's on the people who picked them, not the players themselves.

If future high-end recruits see a team that can only beat the weak teams, they can and do stay away.

That's one way you end up with a QB who is said to be getting a million in NIL money yet isn't very good.

 

[h0c2000]

UPDATE: Gio Lopez commits to North Carolina, expected to be a front-runner for the starting quarterback position - news

MADISON - Gio Lopez entered the transfer portal of college athletics and will embark on a change of schools leaving his starting quarterback position with South Alabama. The former All-State performer for the James Clemens Jets has committed to North Carolina to play for the ACC Tar Heels where...

www.themadisonrecord.com

2 millions dollar per year NIL money for 4-10 69 yards 1 pick six. Gronk would be the only person on Earth happy with that stat line.

 

[signbabybrady]

He shoved Brady out the door with no backup plan so why trust him to handle another quarterback? Bill decided a broken down Cam Newton was the best option. Then he took Mac Jones and his popgun arm and flip-flopped him and Zappe for a couple seasons. We were supposed to trust him with another QB?

He didn't force anyone out.

I don't know what the full plan that off-season was. Supposedly he may have made a run at Jimmy. Either way Cam didn't happen until after the draft and was clearly a stop gap. I would have preferred he drafted one right away and that was a mistake.

Then he did take one year 2 and he was given a real chance to rebuild with. And Bill failed to do it.

Personally Brady should have been enough to warrant another chance but if you insist his work with Cassell, Jimmy, and to a lesser extent Jacoby also are worth noting.

He got it wrong with Mac and to use Zappe against Bill is disingenuous for him to work with a kid and get him to a point to compete with the starter isn't a knock he just didn't have enough skills.

No real excuses needed for Mac he was a worthy prospect but also the 5th one taken that year. I don't think it represents some massive inability to work with QBs it was just one that didn't work out.

If his time in college continues like week 1 maybe it does turn out he was past his prime. But we have had this debate for a long time now and 1 week isn't going to change anything so yes I still think he deserved the benefit of one more chance.

And Mayo already is evidence of the fact that maybe we should have stayed with Bill. We got lucky to have such a good candidate in Vrabel but if we had to go with someone like Schotenheimer like Dallas I think more people would understand my point not necessarily agree but at least understand.

One more chance for Bill vs the possibility of years of the coaching cycle.

 

[signbabybrady]

Nope. One of the traits of the Brady era Patriots is they played their best from December onward a lot more often than not. That stopped happening after Brady left. That's a coaching problem.

When Brady was here all credit to the player when Brady is gone all blame to the coach. Hmmm something isn't consistent here.

 

[lancerman]

He shoved Brady out the door with no backup plan so why trust him to handle another quarterback? Bill decided a broken down Cam Newton was the best option. Then he took Mac Jones and his popgun arm and flip-flopped him and Zappe for a couple seasons. We were supposed to trust him with another QB?

This is the biggest argument against him getting a second chance. He could have had Brady for a few more years before he needed to reload. He made a choice to go into 2020 without a real QB. Mac was entirely his choice and he had flexibility to move up or down. He created the QB controversy with Zappe (neither of who were up to it).

It was too risky at that point to let him have a chance to set us back another 3 years after he failed to rebuild from 2020-2023. I get why we did it.

 

[XLIX]

That's one way you end up with a QB who is said to be getting a million in NIL money yet isn't very good.

FWIW, a million is roughly average for an FBS starting QB... and below average for a P4 starting QB....

 

[signbabybrady]

How many shots does he deserve? He already had Jimmy G sized up to take the job, then Stidham, then Cam Newton, then Mac Jones, then Bailey Zappe.

Jimmy was before Brady decided to leave, Stidham was good enough and he knew before Brady left, Cam was stop gap, Mac was his one real chance, and Zappe was fall back for a game some thought maybe more lol.

He was head coach and GM. It was his fault.

I said it was his fault there are explanations to each thing though.

He was taking the biggest salary of any NFL team executive. The buck stopped with him.

I can/have explained what I think he was thinking when he moved on from Brady, as have you.

Even if we give him a mea culpa for that one, then if is is as great a coach as many insist he is, he should be able to find a QB after several years of trying, but he didn't.

It wasn't several years he wasted one with a stop gap. He got 2 real years to rebuild then identified he got the QB wrong but had to make the owner happy by giving him another shot then got fired for it.

Part of that was him also letting the OL degrade while using a lot of draft assets on defense, and deciding to replace Josh McDaniels as OC with Matt Patricia.

Some of the OL moves were frustrating and created the need for Strange. Who despite being a reach at 1 was starting and got detailed by a knee injury.

How do you expect an 18-22 year old kid getting blasted on national TV to not panic, or to not at least start having major doubts?

Would an 18 year old you give up on a guy like Bill that quick? My dumb 18 year old self would probably do anything a leader like that told me. Some kids might panic but I think most will just follow what they've already started. Most adults probably too for that matter. From the outside it's easy to say quit but when you've gone through as much work as they have in spring and summer it doesn't just go away.

Your choice of terms such as panic and "go against" are as usual, "hot take" exaggerations to try to make a point.

We're talking about failure to build and/or erosion of confidence, not panic nor opposition.

I'm sorry you don't like my use of hyperbole for affect. You seem to understand what I was getting at though.

It's a team sport. You need at least 22 players to all be the right players and rally to the flag.

If they don't have the core skills to compete at the NCAA level it's on the people who picked them, not the players themselves.

If future high-end recruits see a team that can only beat the weak teams, they can and do stay away.

That's one way you end up with a QB who is said to be getting a million in NIL money yet isn't very good.

If recruiting failed as bad as Monday looked of course that's on Bill more than the kids. Not trying to blame individual 18 year olds. Also not removing them from their own responsibilities too but yeah Bill gets blame more than a kid. One game does not determine the whole recruiting classes success.

 

[signbabybrady]

This is the biggest argument against him getting a second chance. He could have had Brady for a few more years before he needed to reload. He made a choice to go into 2020 without a real QB. Mac was entirely his choice and he had flexibility to move up or down. He created the QB controversy with Zappe (neither of who were up to it).

It was too risky at that point to let him have a chance to set us back another 3 years after he failed to rebuild from 2020-2023. I get why we did it.

Instead we let Mayo do it. There was always risk. Hopefully Vrabel prevents it from being that long but we got lucky he was available and had the history here that lead him back to us.

Even with Vrabel there's still risk. The thing with Bill is we have a track record of what it looks like when it's done right.

 

[h0c2000]

 

[Bill Lee]

The thing with Bill is we have a track record of what it looks like when it's done right.

We have a track record based on **** Rehbein pounding on the table 25 years ago to pick Brady, then Charlie Weiss coaching him up, not to mention Brady's own talent and ambition and hard work.

We also have a track record of what it looks like when BB doesn't have similar people around him.

We don't have a track record of BB doing well at CFB recruiting or coaching.

We do have a 73 year old man we're talking about, one with a lot of distractions in his life.

Feel free to remain optimistic, but for me, it is not adding up to a rosy future for BB at UNC.

 

[The Gr8est]

I get that Signbabybrady will defend Bill's actions not matter what but having your girlfriend on the sideline mid-game is insane. She serves absolutely zero purpose to Bill or the team.

The gold ain’t gonna dig itself.

 

[signbabybrady]

We have a track record based on **** Rehbein pounding on the table 25 years ago to pick Brady, then Charlie Weiss coaching him up, not to mention Brady's own talent and ambition and hard work.

We also have a track record of what it looks like when BB doesn't have similar people around him.

We don't have a track record of BB doing well at CFB recruiting or coaching.

We do have a 73 year old man we're talking about, one with a lot of distractions in his life.

Feel free to remain optimistic, but for me, it is not adding up to a rosy future for BB at UNC.

Now you're back to being a little fan and writing off his whole career.

In an effort to try and create some sort of middle ground let me come at it from your side and ask what is having a GOAT like Brady actually worth compared to the other great QBs to win multiple? Call it the Brady curve if you will. You guys seem to want to erase all 6 and that clearly isn't right. Should we give Bill half credit at least still making him a 3 time winner? That still doesn't seem right most SB winning coaches have great QBs too. You obviously know I think this is rediculous question but what do you think is the right Brady curve because again obviously erasing all 6 is crazy. Be fair this is not a Bill vs Brady debate this is Bill on Brady curve Vs other Coaches.

 

[signbabybrady]

I get that Signbabybrady will defend Bill's actions not matter what but having your girlfriend on the sideline mid-game is insane. She serves absolutely zero purpose to Bill or the team.

Have you figured out it wasn't mid game yet?

 

[203Pat]

He didn't force anyone out.

I don't know what the full plan that off-season was. Supposedly he may have made a run at Jimmy. Either way Cam didn't happen until after the draft and was clearly a stop gap. I would have preferred he drafted one right away and that was a mistake.

Then he did take one year 2 and he was given a real chance to rebuild with. And Bill failed to do it.

Personally Brady should have been enough to warrant another chance but if you insist his work with Cassell, Jimmy, and to a lesser extent Jacoby also are worth noting.

He got it wrong with Mac and to use Zappe against Bill is disingenuous for him to work with a kid and get him to a point to compete with the starter isn't a knock he just didn't have enough skills.

No real excuses needed for Mac he was a worthy prospect but also the 5th one taken that year. I don't think it represents some massive inability to work with QBs it was just one that didn't work out.

If his time in college continues like week 1 maybe it does turn out he was past his prime. But we have had this debate for a long time now and 1 week isn't going to change anything so yes I still think he deserved the benefit of one more chance.

And Mayo already is evidence of the fact that maybe we should have stayed with Bill. We got lucky to have such a good candidate in Vrabel but if we had to go with someone like Schotenheimer like Dallas I think more people would understand my point not necessarily agree but at least understand.

One more chance for Bill vs the possibility of years of the coaching cycle.

I think Bill deliberately ran Brady out of town, but for argument’s sake, if we work under the assumption that Brady wanted to leave and Bill wasn't able to stop him, then Bill still had no backup plan at the position. Bill seemed perfectly content to roll with Jarrett Stidham and Brian Hoyer at the most important position in sports until Stidham went to a wedding or something. Then, 2 weeks before camp, he decided Cam Newton would hop off the scrapheap to be our starter.

Then, when he drafted a very physically limited quarterback, he surrounded him with bargain bin talent like Nelson Agholor, Kendrick Bourne, and already confirmed bust, N'Keal Harry. It is clear that Bill can no longer construct a winning offense at this point, and it seems mainly because he doesn’t value the quarterback position or value the skill positions enough to prop up a limited QB. Mix in giving a second-year QB a DC at OC and then yanking him in and out of the lineup for a guy who was equally as bad. Bill set the entire offense up for failure.

In no way should someone with that recent track record be trusted to get another chance.

 

[sb1]

BiLL dEVeLoPeD BrADy

UNC Offensive Struggles Summed Up in One Sad Graphic During Bill Belichick’s Debut

Gio Lopez was the subject of a very sad graphic during Bill Belichick’s UNC debut.

www.si.com

 

[sb1]

Give Bill another chance?

 

[signbabybrady]

I think Bill deliberately ran Brady out of town, but for argument’s sake, if we work under the assumption that Brady wanted to leave and Bill wasn't able to stop him, then Bill still had no backup plan at the position. Bill seemed perfectly content to roll with Jarrett Stidham and Brian Hoyer at the most important position in sports until Stidham went to a wedding or something. Then, 2 weeks before camp, he decided Cam Newton would hop off the scrapheap to be our starter.

The franchise tag was removed as an option well after the draft and there was already urgency to use assets to help with the open championship window so his QB investments could only be so big for years after the Brady/Jimmy stuff.

Then, when he drafted a very physically limited quarterback, he surrounded him with bargain bin talent like Nelson Agholor, Kendrick Bourne, and already confirmed bust, N'Keal Harry. It is clear that Bill can no longer construct a winning offense at this point, and it seems mainly because he doesn’t value the quarterback position or value the skill positions enough to prop up a limited QB. Mix in giving a second-year QB a DC at OC and then yanking him in and out of the lineup for a guy who was equally as bad. Bill set the entire offense up for failure.

I agree he's never seemed to over value the WR position and since the RB position across the league is devalued (even if a little vogue again right now still far from RB hay day) I'd even say skill position. But in no way would I say he undervalues the QB position.

I think this false narrative comes from his comments about being able to win with an above average QB. And I've always said that was more about his confidence in the players on that dynasty team and not meant as any kind of knock on Brady or QBs.

In no way should someone with that recent track record be trusted to get another chance.

8 time SB winning track record lol no way at all though.

 

[signbabybrady]

SB1 gloating more after Monday night than after any of our SB wins. Sad but true fact.

If I come off as angry at times in this debate or project something on you that you don't feel you said just take note of that crap.

Most of you have been surprisingly not so bad but the actions of a few of you only make me feel more justified that no true fan would behave like that. Troll, Hater, and possibly/likely even fan of another team.