Bill Simmons "hears" that Moss and AD are gone, BB is "blowing it up"

[dhamz]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Pats trade Moss and use that compensation in return to try to trade for Vincent Jackson. However, I rather see the Pats keep Moss and trade for Vincent Jackson.

Why in the world San Diego consider trading the Pats Vincent Jackson?

 

[Kontradiction]

People just don't want to admit it and they use the piling on because of his undeserved rep excuse to try to stop rational discussion of a growing concern. It's easier to just blame Brady for locking on and being stubborn and making less than perfect throws...

The mental toll on a QB managing this kind of situation is far more debilitating than the physical stress of dealing with cracked or broken bones or healed knees... If you keep Moss the risk is we tread water for another season. Even with another outside threat to split coverage, doesn't do Brady any good unless we blow up the damn OL too. Defenses are taking away the deep threat not by doubling Moss so much as rushing Brady. And when they back off into coverage we don't have anyone Brady can trust consistently beyond Welker (and that will grow with Edleman).

Moss has been a model citizen by league standards. The standards have been altered for him here, though. He's not a leader, he's not an effort guy in the face of adversity, and his mere existenc e here has hung a bullseye on Brady's chest. Upgrade the OL, find some competent receivers and a TE who can work the middle of the field and maybe a young stud (hopefully Tate) to stretch it periodically without drawing a ton of attention and we might be back in business sooner rather than later. It's a lot less costly fix than dramatically upgrading the OL and RB while still needing to upgrade WR just to accommodate a #1WR who isn't a game changer at this juncture and whose contract is up after this season anyway.

Brady sent dozens of thinly veiled messages about what was happening in that locker room and on the practice field and on game day this season, and increasingly as the season progressed the tone became one of frustration. People can deny it all they want. Injuries are an excuse for poor performance. Guys have to be mentally tough. You have to find a way to fight through it. Welker joined the chorus down the stretch. By halftime last week even Faulk was on board... The only leader we failed to hear from was conspicuous in his absense, as his generally are... The cornerstones of this franchise in the Belichick era have been accountability and responsibility and self motivation and that other thing Brady kept reiterating, committment to each other. I'm personally tired of watching this team try to find ways to utilize Moss. I want to watch them find ways to win.

So you think the better alternative is to get rid of Moss and then count on a guy who is still recovering from a massive knee injury, who even had to be IR'ed because of it this season, to stretch the field? Much less, a guy who will essentially be in his first season in this offense. On top of that, you're relying on Tate to do this with Welker recovering from a devastating knee injury of his own (he will not be 100% to start the season in 2010). Hmm. Well, it's an intersting option. However, if you thought this offense was bad in 2009, they will most definitely be even worse in 2010 if we do that.

I agree with you about upgrading the O-Line, but I don't think it needs to be chopped up. Realistically, it needs only a couple of pieces. Mankins is still good and should be good for a few years to come. Light is still effective at LT. Koppen can stand to be upgraded, but would ultimately benefit from stronger play at the RG position (which needs to be upgraded regardless of whether or not Neal plays next season). And we can slide Vollmer in at RT until Light is ready to hang it up. Realistically, this season we could stand to see upgrades at RG and, to a much lesser extent, C. The season after that, we'll probably need to pick up a RT if Light is gone and Vollmer moves over to the LT position.

I'll reiterate this: letting Moss go would be a bad idea. He's still a weapon. On top of that, he'll ease the seeds of change in the passing game through next season. If we want to upgrade Moss, we should wait until 2011. We're set, as of right now, to have what looks like a high first round pick that year. In that draft, we can nab either one of A.J. Green or Julio Jones. Those two are just two examples of big, physical, athletically gifted wide receivers who can stretch the field. Letting him go this season will only hurt Brady. Essentially, he'll be looking at options of Brandon Tate (first full year in the offense coming off of a knee injury), Wes Welker (coming off of a torn ACL/MCL), Julian Edelman, Sam Aiken, and either one of a draft pick or someone picked up in free agency or through trade. Not very good. Keep Moss around for one more year, and get another weapon (like an Antonio Bryant) in there to line up across from him to take the pressure off of him and Welker, a guy who was also seeing his fair share of double coverage at the end of the year.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Re: Bill Simmons article - "What he hears"

If only that question were relevant to my point....

My point was about the homers here who were blabbing about how the Panthers defenders didn't have a better perspective on the game than they had. As for Jaws, I thought that the Brady and Belichick press conferences and interviews were pretty clearly not agreeing with his assessment. Moss' comments themselves were certainly not in lock step with Jaws and Hoge, for that matter.

It wasn't the classic homers as you call them, it was the Moss apologists who drove the backlash against any criticism of Moss. Jaws basically went at it from a premise of did he QUIT. Hodge is just a moron. Moss has become the elephant in the livingroom. He says all the right things when he speaks at all, so it's not like he classically disruptive. But it's clear he's frustrated and that frustration is spilling over and impacting the entire offense.

TO wasn't disruptive this season, either. Sad fact is neither of them were game changers, and for the money they have to be. Unfortunately once you pay them the money the team suffers elsewhere because of the focus those dollars demand. I thought what CHFF underscored in that article on elite WR's was spot on by and large. Sometimes they help you get to the playoffs, Harrison certainly did in Indy, but once there they tend to have less impact - Harrison was almost non existent. Probably because of facing better defenses and because coaches can devote more time and resources and talent to gameplanning for one and done games. And eventually that existing dynamic is exacerbated by age.

Everyone said the Cowboys were damned if they do and damned if they don't when TO was let go. Look where they ended up after everyone opined that absent him Romo would have no excuses... Necessity is often the mother of invention. It's kind of how we won that first ring.

 

[mayoclinic]

Rumor is that Belichick had a falling out with Kraft after the Spygate fiasco but Kraft couldn't fire Belichick at the time because Goodell convinced Kraft that it would hurt the NFL and even more so the Patriots. Firing Belichick would only add to the flame the idea that the video taping was a big part in our SB seasons. So Kraft has been stuck with Belichick, more or less. What makes it even more interesting is that since then, Belichick has been planning to move his operation out west, where he doesn't see as big a competition as he does here (since Parcells was hired in MIA). He apparently consulted the Hunts to hire Pioli and the Hunts agreed with the caveat that Belichick himself would come later on (this part is pretty unbelievable IMO). Belichick then traded Cassel and Vrabel to KC for a mere second round draft pick when he was offered a lot more from other teams. Apparently, BB was sold on Cassel after the 08 season that he could win a SB with a good team around him and placed him in KC to be his QB once he gets there. Vrabel was sent for his leadership and because he's BB's most effective enforcer. This was supposed to be a 3 year plan, with BB finally leaving the Pats after the 2010 season, but after Weiss and Crennel both became unemployed, it became obvious that it's time to pack up from NE, hire Weiss and Crennel, and see if they could rekindle what they had here in NE earlier this decade in KC.

Take it for what it's worth, it could be a useless rumor...

And I heard BB's eyeing an Arena Football job, so that he won't have to put up with Goodell and all of the NFL crap.

Sounds like a useless rumor to me.

 

[TriplecHamp]

F**K Sh*T up BB!

 

[emoney_33]

You're looking at one more season out of Moss, max. He'll be 33 and had injury problems this season. He was not double-teamed against the Ravens or Jets. He requires constant attention and praise to keep his motivation up. There was considerable evidence pointing to him quitting on plays this season. He's not going to be the same receiver as he was in 2007, not even close.

You do realize this is a bold-faced lie right? Half of it is fabricated and the other half just completely false.

There is 100% 0 evidence of him "quitting" on any play in his entire Patriots tenure. The fact of the matter is you try to judge BODY LANGUAGE from a TV feed from a guy who is an absolute artist in setting up the defense. So the DB who is playing against him can't tell how fast he is or where he is going or anything from his body language (ask Champ Bailey btw) yet all the armchair psychologists can?

In 2007 he broke records as did Brady. Neither are the "same" as 2007, and nor should we expect that amazing record breaking offense ever again. Moss is still the best WR in the NFL, and at worst top-5 receiver in the NFL.

The Ravens absolutely 100% for a fact double teamed him until they got a very large lead and started playing 10-15 yards off, conceding the short stuff and protecting deep while pinning their ears back on the pass rush.

 

[emoney_33]

I tend to agree with pats1 here. Moss needs to go. It is a tough decision
for BB because of how Brady and Moss have become close friends.
I love Brady's favorite receiver to be the open one again.
I could see BB blowing it up because there are so many issues to address.
Do what's right for the team Bill.

His favorite receiver is STILL the open one. Some of you can't accept the fact that NO ONE aside from Moss and Welker could get open this season. It's easier to live in the fantasy world of years past where they had a WORSE passing offense than they have had with Moss/Welker I guess.

 

[Sivy]

I heard they were going to sign Randy Macho Man Savage.

 

[Kontradiction]

You're looking at one more season out of Moss, max. He'll be 33 and had injury problems this season. He was not double-teamed against the Ravens or Jets. He requires constant attention and praise to keep his motivation up. There was considerable evidence pointing to him quitting on plays this season. He's not going to be the same receiver as he was in 2007, not even close.

A lot of number one receivers were not double teamed against the Jets. That's the benefit of having a shutdown corner who cuts off half the field like Revis does. The amount of guys he shut down on his own is the biggest reason why he deserved DPOY far more than Woodson.

 

[condon84]

I heard they were going to sign Randy Macho Man Savage.

ooooooooohhhhhh yeeeeeeaaaaaaaahhhh!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Deus Irae]

Well perhaps I interpreted your original post incorrectly...

No problem, and my second response to you should have been put more nicely, so you have my sincere apology. Having said that, here's the sort of thing I was referring to:

You do realize this is a bold-faced lie right? Half of it is fabricated and the other half just completely false.

There is 100% 0 evidence of him "quitting" on any play in his entire Patriots tenure. The fact of the matter is you try to judge BODY LANGUAGE from a TV feed from a guy who is an absolute artist in setting up the defense. So the DB who is playing against him can't tell how fast he is or where he is going or anything from his body language (ask Champ Bailey btw) yet all the armchair psychologists can?

In 2007 he broke records as did Brady. Neither are the "same" as 2007, and nor should we expect that amazing record breaking offense ever again. Moss is still the best WR in the NFL, and at worst top-5 receiver in the NFL.

The Ravens absolutely 100% for a fact double teamed him until they got a very large lead and started playing 10-15 yards off, conceding the short stuff and protecting deep while pinning their ears back on the pass rush.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Bill Simmons article - "What he hears"

If only that question were relevant to my point....

My point was about the homers here who were blabbing about how the Panthers defenders didn't have a better perspective on the game than they had. As for Jaws, I thought that the Brady and Belichick press conferences and interviews were pretty clearly not agreeing with his assessment. Moss' comments themselves were certainly not in lock step with Jaws and Hoge, for that matter.

no one ever said that Gamble didn't have a "better view". The simple fact is that his opinion is meaningless, as is all the people who think they can sit there and judge his body language on tv. The fact of the matter is, Moss didn't quit, and you can live the rest of your life in denial.

 

[emoney_33]

Re: Bill Simmons article - "What he hears"

It wasn't the classic homers as you call them, it was the Moss apologists who drove the backlash against any criticism of Moss. Jaws basically went at it from a premise of did he QUIT. Hodge is just a moron. Moss has become the elephant in the livingroom. He says all the right things when he speaks at all, so it's not like he classically disruptive. But it's clear he's frustrated and that frustration is spilling over and impacting the entire offense.

MO you epitomize the Moss hater, driven over the edge by the media you have turned a blind eye to all facts and logic when discussing Randy Moss. You have 0 credibility in the Moss debate because you continually twist everyone's words into being about Moss. You continue to accuse Brady and BB of putting Moss above the team. You continue to believe that there is some alternate bizarro world where Moss is some huge quitting cancer and BB and Brady are pretending to like him just to stroke this media-fabricated fragility.

The fact that you say it's impacting the entire offense is laughable at best. Step back for one moment and do an objective analysis on this offense in 2009 and you would actually see that this is the best passing offense the team has had this decade aside from 2007. The only comparable OVERALL offense is that of 2004 which consisted of a GREAT running game of the workhorse season from Corey Dillon (leading to more run attempts than pass attempts).

You guys can judge his body language and put him under a microscope all you want, but all objective analysis refutes your fabricated conclusions.

 

[emoney_33]

No problem, and my second response to you should have been put more nicely, so you have my sincere apology. Having said that, here's the sort of thing I was referring to:

I have stated facts, you twist logic to make things seem like you are correct. You have been wrong since the beginning and you will continue to look like a fool to anyone with any objectivity.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Any talk of a released player has to take into account that the Pats could very well face that player 2x next year. I don't think Belichick is worried about dealing with AD or Maroney on the opposite side. I do believe that he wouldn't want to see Moss in South Beach or the swamps of Jersey.

Unless the Pats need cap room for some master plan, I see almost no upside in getting rid of Moss. Brady should be fully healthy, but do you really want his only familiar targets to be Baker and Edelman? Why not just send an invitation to blitz Brady with 7 on every down?

Use this year to get Welker healthy, develop Tate, replace Faulk, refocus on the TE (either with or without Watson) and get another weapon or two at WR. All of this is MUUUUUUUCH easier with Moss than without him.

The Pats have two 1st round picks and 2011 and the following players likely available to them:

Julio Jones Alabama 6-4 212
A.J. Green Georgia 6-4 208
Michael Floyd Notre Dame 6-3 220
Jonathan Baldwin Pittsburgh 6-5 225

All of them big, strong and athletic. If you want to let Moss go and replace him with one of these guys, that makes more sense.

I wouldn't worry about facing Moss if I had just a decent secondary and a pass rush... Most of the teams who stopped us had perceived weaknesses in their secondaries but we couldn't capitalize on that because of their pass rush or our inability to counter much of one. Randy's focus was also pretty inconsistent even when he was open or Brady tried to force balls to him in coverage. If he's here next season I expect to see more of the same.

 

[Deus Irae]

I have stated facts, you twist logic to make things seem like you are correct. You have been wrong since the beginning and you will continue to look like a fool to anyone with any objectivity.

You keep on living in your world of unicorns, my friend.

 

[yopats]

I think he is going to blow it up as well.. and could see.. Light / Maroney / AD / Moss traded and don't be surprised if he was even to test the waters for a future HOF QB..


I know that is blasphemy.. but I think he see's the writing on the wall and in some way thinks it would be a challenge to totally rebuild quickly w/ tons of draft picks and money..

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

The fact that they talk about drafting a "stud" RB without even knowing who's going to be there at 22 or what it'll cost to trade up shows that this is speculation at best. It would be a death sentence to the offense to get rid of Moss with Welker's status uncertain for the beginning of next season. And AD being gone is not exactly going out on a limb. Nothing to read into here

 

[emoney_33]

I wouldn't worry about facing Moss if I had just a decent secondary and a pass rush... Most of the teams who stopped us had perceived weaknesses in their secondaries but we couldn't capitalize on that because of their pass rush or our inability to counter much of one. Randy's focus was also pretty inconsistent even when he was open or Brady tried to force balls to him in coverage. If he's here next season I expect to see more of the same.

This is a joke right? Moss puts up the numbers he did against the BEST PASS DEFENSE schedule of the last 17 years and you wouldn't be worried about facing him?

Yea if you can get a pass rush consistently in 1-2 seconds, then you don't fear ANY receiver, that's the nature of football... There's not a single team in the NFL that doesn't shade safety help to Moss' side on 95% of plays. EVEN the ones with good pass rushes. Even a great pass rush doesn't get to the QB quickly on every single down.

 

[borg]

I'm buying the Simmons gossip. I'm betting that BB has little patience for players that lose focus and require special attention...aka Moss and Maroney. The fact that Brady has to give therapy sessions to Moss on the sidelines must piss BB off to no end. Brady should only have his mind on the game...during the game. As for LoMo, the private sessions with BB must seem futile for the coach.
Moving on to the rebuild, it makes sense that the Pats have been positioning for this offseason. Dump the bad cap contracts with no penalty and retool. BB, Brady, and money...magic words to free agents looking for a ring.
This new team will be based on a power back runner and short passes....old style (2001-4). Quick passes will preserve Brady and utilize Welker (health?) and Edelperson. The power back would be Jonathan Stewart if I had my way. Former first rounder, two years as a pro. Second on Carolina depth chart but shown he is worthy of full time gig. As close to a Dillon as I've seen recently. Start with a #2 and Maroney and see what happens.
the line needs to be beefed up, C and RG to start.
I could go on...but bottom line...I have to believe the "Moss" era has gone against BB's core beliefs. He overcompensated after the Caldwell '06 season and listened to critics wondering what Brady could do with studs. $9 miil for a WR that can takeover a game or vanish is not how to deploy 8% of cap space. It was fun, it was a great show...but time to power it up and beat up the rest of the NFL. Clear the bench of these fragile egos.