Better NFL offense: Patriots or Saints?

[ProudestRyno]

Judging from how we play the Giants we're never "lucky" to get them.

I don't think that's what we're discussing though, we're talking about overall numbers. Saying I think we'd split with the Saints in the Superdome would be disrespectful to the Saints, it's their home field. Now do I think we'd split or possibly win more than 50% vs New Orleans in a neutral domed stadium? Sure, at least the odds would be better than doing so in New Orleans.

That said do I think Brady would have larger passing numbers if he played 10 games in a dome vs having all of the Pats home games in Foxboro? Yes. Would the Patriots offense for a season produce bigger stats in that scenario? Yes. How could it not? You never have to adjust your gamplan due to weather. You never have 40 MPH wind tunnels in Buffalo that prevent you from chucking it all over the field and what not.

The fact that so many Saints fans aren't able to grasp this simple concept is puzzling and ridiculous to me.

 

[everlong]

You can match Colston vs Welker and Gronk vs Graham and come out even in the end, but do you think Lloyd is really better than Moore?
I just think the match up should be as I showed above. You think I'm wrong?

Yes I think you are wrong. Lloyd has put up exceptional numbers getting the ball thrown by average QBs at best and now you insert him into this offense and he's going to be a monster just like Welker coming from Miami. Moore's a nice receiver but you put him in Denver/St Louis last year or Denver the year before and he doesn't match Lloyd's production.

The debate wasn't who would win in the dome or grass. The debate was who's the better offense. If the Patriots and Saints played a 16 game season against each other alternating home and away the Patriots offensive numbers wouldn't drop off and might even go up with all those dome games. The Saints conversely having to play 8 games outside would go down since some of their road games are domes as well. Now throw in 4 second half games that bare minimum are cold and possibly windy or wet and they drop off big time. Brees cannot throw in the wind. His career splits say this is true.

 

[pherein]

Just to clarify I purposely avoided comparing same position vs same position, which is why I did not compare Welker to Moore and why I did compare Hernandez to Sproles; it was more an attempt to equalize the comparison of percentage of production.

Yeah, I saw that, was just wondering if its logical to compare best player to player from top to bottom or should it be by position. We don't have a guy with Welkers abilities.
Even Colston is not going to beat Welker. I was more aiming toward who's the better at a position, not player, because then we could find some weak spots, and who could field the better complete offense with the most weapons to be effective.
Asume we are playing each other and we both have the same horrid defense we enjoyed last year.
TE position for example :
TE = Graham, Thomas, Higgens Vs Gronk, Hernz, Fells

While Graham and Gronk are a wash , in my mind, Hernz is better than Thomas. So, you win on depth and secondary skill in that position .
But Hernz is not really a 2nd TE, he's used unnaturally as another WR, as you field 2 TE's.
We only field 2 TE's on a run play or a trick play.

That would put Welker, Gronk, Branch, and Hernz, with BJGE in the back field vs Saints Graham, Colston, Moore, and Meachem, with Thomas in the Back field, last year. With In a spread type offense situation.
Sense we both have solid OL, that gives the Saints the advantage, because all of our WR's are better than Branch ( no offense, I like Branch), and BJGE can't screen or run better than Thomas.
Let me know if I have that line up right, ok

This year they have to fit in Llyod and Gaffney, and Branch becomes a secondary guy.
Im guessing Lloyd is the #1 RWR , and Gaffney is his second. While Welker is the #2 LWR, and Branch will be his second.

so, assuming what I know today. Our spread offenses would be

LWR= Welker, TE = Gronk, TE= Hernz, RWR= Lloyd, and RB = Ridley ?
VS
LWR=Colston, TE= Graham, SWR= Moore, RWR= Henderson, and RB= Sproles

Is that correct?
ITs difficult for me to place R or L on a WR's with the saints because we don't line up that way.
They line up on the mismatch, and we only have #1, 2, 3 and etc. WR's, they are not assigned a spot. We just have 2 separate groups. This list is this:

Wide Receiver core A
#1M. Colston
#2 L. Moore
#7 N. Toon
#8 A. Tanner

Wide Receiver core B
#3 D. Henderson
#4 A. Arrington
#5 C. Roby
#6 J. Morgan

TE
#1 J. Graham
#3 D. Thomas
#2 M. Higgins
#4 J. Byrne

NE is going to be

LWide Receiver
W. Welker
D. Branch
D. Stallworth
M. Slater

RWide Receiver
B. Lloyd
J. Gaffney
J. Edelman
J. Holley

Tight End
R. Gronkowski
A. Hernandez
D. Fells
B. Scaife

Is that correct?

Gaffney did quite well when he was here before. About half way through the 2007 season he surpassed Stallworth as the receiver on the outside to Brady's right. The Chiefs offered more money than the Pats did and in retrospect the difference was small enough that I am sure Belichick wishes he could have a mulligan on that decision. I wouldn't characterize it as 'not working out'.

While it is true that Lloyd and Gaffney did not play for the Patriots last year there are valid reasons to anticipate they will catch on easily, and do well. Lloyd has played for OC Josh McDaniels for the last few years, and Gaffney picked up the system when he played in this offense before. Both had over 900 yards receiving last year, and that was with inferior quarterbacks throwing them the ball.

Well I knew Lloyd's history and thought he would do fine. Gaffney I have no idea about. Thanks

The point is not that they are going to duplicate those numbers - they aren't - which is why I said "obviously those numbers are a bit skewed. Lloyd and Gaffney's production will likely decrease as their proportion of the team's offense will decrease (no longer the number one option)." The point is that based on what they did last year and based on their past success in this offensive system, there is reason to believe they will be successful when called upon (as opposed to what happened with Ochocinco or Taylor Price).

Well I see that now. Ocho's problems do not really pertain to their station. Hope Im understanding that right. They should pick it up quickly, without a problem.
I think they will be successful, but the question is if your fully fielded Patriots offense is better than a fully fielded Saints offense. I think looking at what we can both put on the field at the WR/TE core in a spread offense position is smart to work out first. Then maybe work in the RB position and see who has an advantage.
Both our OL have been beyond great for years, so I see that as a waste of time. They're both very good, with great coaching. Thats where I was coming from. Does that logical or nuts?

 

[pherein]

Is this a serious comment?

LOL, of course not.

 

[pherein]

Yes I think you are wrong. Lloyd has put up exceptional numbers getting the ball thrown by average QBs at best and now you insert him into this offense and he's going to be a monster just like Welker coming from Miami. Moore's a nice receiver but you put him in Denver/St Louis last year or Denver the year before and he doesn't match Lloyd's production.

The debate wasn't who would win in the dome or grass. The debate was who's the better offense. If the Patriots and Saints played a 16 game season against each other alternating home and away the Patriots offensive numbers wouldn't drop off and might even go up with all those dome games. The Saints conversely having to play 8 games outside would go down since some of their road games are domes as well. Now throw in 4 second half games that bare minimum are cold and possibly windy or wet and they drop off big time. Brees cannot throw in the wind. His career splits say this is true.

Lloyds a great WR, but you don't think exceptional is pushing it a bit ?
I mean he's only had 1 year of making above 733 yards, and beyond his 2010 Broncos 1448 yards, with 11 TDs, his second closest was 6 TD's after being in the NFL for 10 years. Sorry but I don't see Lloyd as being close to colston.

Moore doesn't drop balls, and has dropped way less balls than Lloyd. He would have done very well on those teams. Problem is they would have never given a 5ft 9" guy like moore a chance on those teams.
Well thats completely true. The problem with being so accurate and being a perfectionist is the little things kill you. High wind and rain completely destroys Brees, and you can see it in his face when it happens, he's completely shocked, and pissed.
He literally doesn't understand why way they ball went that way,lol.

 

[pherein]

The fact that so many Saints fans aren't able to grasp this simple concept is puzzling and ridiculous to me.

I think your pushing it to contemplate what we can't grasp, and saying " so many " eludes you know something you don't .
Not trying to be rude.

The question of the Giants was not to put anyone down it was to ask who was your legitimate fear to face in the Lucas Dome. I think us and GB would be on that list before the Giants. Which is relevant to the thread, because it shows a respect. Same as you would be top on our list of teams not to face in that situation.

I think our only differences in fans might be that we don't want to face the weaker team. Its boring to us. Were not happy when the better team loses. We want to play that team. But I think thats just a culture thing.

 

[ausbacker]

Tom Brady is better than Drew Brees. That's enough for me pherein.

 

[pherein]

Tom Brady is better than Drew Brees. That's enough for me pherein.

Yeah, we know , and Ive avoid the QB spot at all cost , as you might have noticed
Thanks for ending the thread, lol. I can't counter that.

 

[ausbacker]

Yeah, we know , and Ive avoid the QB spot at all cost , as you might have noticed
Thanks for ending the thread, lol. I can't counter that.

Hey, sweep the leg right?

As a side, I really wish Brees and the Saints would get their **** together and consummate a contract. Just get it done. It's fun watching the Saints O go.

 

[pherein]

Hey, sweep the leg right?

As a side, I really wish Brees and the Saints would get their **** together and consummate a contract. Just get it done. It's fun watching the Saints O go.

Right

Nice of you to say. I think everyone in the NFL is excited about the Llyod, Gaffney impact.
as a realistic wake up slap in the face to most fans not from NO.
If he signs a contract now he's an idiot. Brees is going to be a saint forever. He's not signing a contract. He's signing a retirement plan.
He needs to make sure when he's playing with the Saints 5 years from now at 38 that when he's making 18-20 million a year the new QB's are not making 20-25 million a year. Inflation and the details of how he will retire, meaning , does he decide? Is it a owner or coach decision ? His stats? , can he have a bad year?
Im sure the "contract " is very complicated, and its not all about money.
For all we know the hold up is that they won't let him decide when he wants to retire or some small detail like that. Maybe he wants and option to coach, who knows. I know he wants to live in NO, and raise his kids here.
In any event , after his last season he's not going to get a better chance to bargain than right now. He'll hold out to the last possible moment , then sign.
I guarantee it. Brees will always be a Saint.

Were pretty excited about

 

[everlong]

Lloyds a great WR, but you don't think exceptional is pushing it a bit ?
I mean he's only had 1 year of making above 733 yards, and beyond his 2010 Broncos 1448 yards, with 11 TDs, his second closest was 6 TD's after being in the NFL for 10 years. Sorry but I don't see Lloyd as being close to colston.

Moore doesn't drop balls, and has dropped way less balls than Lloyd. He would have done very well on those teams. Problem is they would have never given a 5ft 9" guy like moore a chance on those teams.
Well thats completely true. The problem with being so accurate and being a perfectionist is the little things kill you. High wind and rain completely destroys Brees, and you can see it in his face when it happens, he's completely shocked, and pissed.
He literally doesn't understand why way they ball went that way,lol.

Welker never had over 700 something yards before teaming with Brady and Colston has had Brees so as of now there's really no comparision as Colston is the clear winner. If Colston signed as a free agent with Tampa however and Lloyd in NE their numbers would be quite different.

Moore is a different type of receiver. Lloyd was creating offense on his own with his athletic ability. Moore agreed has great hands but he's not going to out leap Lloyd nor does he have his ability to seperate down the field. Moore wouldn't have the openings under neath in a different offense. Josh Freeman for instance would waste Moore's talents.

I'll take an over/under bet on Lloyd's production this year with the caveat that if he gets hurt all bets are off. Barring that He'll go over 60/1000/10.

 

[pherein]

Welker never had over 700 something yards before teaming with Brady and Colston has had Brees so as of now there's really no comparision as Colston is the clear winner. If Colston signed as a free agent with Tampa however and Lloyd in NE their numbers would be quite different.

Moore is a different type of receiver. Lloyd was creating offense on his own with his athletic ability. Moore agreed has great hands but he's not going to out leap Lloyd nor does he have his ability to seperate down the field. Moore wouldn't have the openings under neath in a different offense. Josh Freeman for instance would waste Moore's talents.

I'll take an over/under bet on Lloyd's production this year with the caveat that if he gets hurt all bets are off. Barring that He'll go over 60/1000/10.

Having Brady or brees as a QB can only make you look better. Id have to say most of my reasoning to say Llyod would never be as good as Colston is the physical traits and catching ability.
Colston 6'4, 225 lbs, 4.50 in the 40, 37 vertical
Lloyd 6'0, 190 lbs, 4.62 in the 40, 36 vertical

Colston can out muscle most CB's for the ball, and I think he's proved that his catching ability is in the elite category. Colston makes Brees look good because he's a huge target that can catch impossible balls on the edge of his area. Not like meachem, who is a excellent WR, but can not usually catch fully extended.
Breaking all rookie records his 1st year is pretty impressive even with a Brees as a QB.
I dont consider Gronks breaking all the TE/passing/etc.. records to be diminish because he has Brady as a QB. It helped,lol, but he still had to do it, and if you stuck any other TE in his place for that season, even Graham, I don't see them doing the same.

Lloyds vertical is pretty impressive, considering his size. But his speed and mass put him at a disadvantage when comparing him to Colston.
Ive always thought that having Colston on the Patriots, with less targets than the Saints have had, he would have had 300-500 extra yards a year, and more TD's.

Your completely right there is no way to be sure, if the situation where reversed.
But my gut tells me that there are elite WR like Fitzgerald, Moss, Carter, Johnson, etc..
in the NFL. Who seem to perform at a high level, and have an amazing work ethic, no matter what situation they are in.
I put Colston in that category. I don't have Lloyd in the category , yet. But my opinion is just that, and no way to prove it,lol.

Almost everything you said comparing Lloyd and Moore I agree with, except getting open underneath. Moore is the best route runner on our team, a the favorite WR of Brees, he's said that. Moore never quits on a play and is open probably more than any target on the Saints. He's just a slippery little guy with, 4.5 speed, and great hands. But Freeman would waste his talents. He needs a Brees or Brady to be as effective as he has been, and Llyod is better.

I think thats a safe bet , wouldn't surprise me if he had 70/1200/10 either.

 

[everlong]

Almost everything you said comparing Lloyd and Moore I agree with, except getting open underneath. Moore is the best route runner on our team, a the favorite WR of Brees, he's said that. Moore never quits on a play and is open probably more than any target on the Saints. He's just a slippery little guy with, 4.5 speed, and great hands. But Freeman would waste his talents. He needs a Brees or Brady to be as effective as he has been, and Llyod is better.

I think thats a safe bet , wouldn't surprise me if he had 70/1200/10 either.

Fair enough.

The only other thing I would say is that Lloyd in spite of not having the greatest speed measurables is that he has good enough straight line and short area speed that when you couple that with his football smarts and leaping it makes him more dangerous than people with a stop watch think.

 

[pherein]

Fair enough.

The only other thing I would say is that Lloyd in spite of not having the greatest speed measurables is that he has good enough straight line and short area speed that when you couple that with his football smarts and leaping it makes him more dangerous than people with a stop watch think.

Completely agree, and you point out something I forgot. Lioyd is a very smart football player.
At the risk of repeating though. I am always stunned by his vertical capability on the field. Graham is listed as a 39 vertical in the combine, but has a number of 41 verticals in camp, and I think Lloyd is the same. It would not surprise me at all if he has a 39 vertical in game.

I only posted this thread because we had the same in our site. So, I thought, well I'm not going to learn a lot about our team with our fans,lol.
And measuring the Saints against a Super Bowl team with brilliant coaching and Brady, is a good indicator of how we stand in the NFC.

I love Meachem but he was always a Really good WR. Moore and Herndersons #'s suffered when Meachem entered the line up because he got the lions share of the plays. Both Henderson and Moore have been #1's WR's earlier when Meachem was just god awful. We had to many good WR's. I don't consider losing Meachem to be a problem.

Moore has always been better than Meachem, and Henderson just as good but with 4.35 break away speed. Arrington is is decent 4th, but Maybe Morgan or Toon will take that spot. This just gives Moore and Henderson more touches, which they can handle fine, their pros, be their done that.

Regardless of how anyone spins it, not having SP is going to hurt our offensive play calling, rhythm, and mismatches , a lot. No one can stay on top of a game beter offensively except BB. So I am trying to avoid that conversation completely,lol.
Its not possible for the Saints to be better than the Patriots without SP. I believe that to be a fact.

 

[Patriot Missile]

As great as that Saints offense is, the X-Factor is Darren Sproles. Talking about fitting right in? He does that and then some. He is the ultimate security blanket to Bree's and probably the most dangerous weapon on that team besides Bree's himself. I would go as far as say he is in the top 5% of players that impact their rosters. How many times did the Saints find themselves in 3rd downs and then a short dump off pass changed their fortunes? Would be sack? There is Sproles again.

As great as the Pats were last year I would say the Saints offense was better in 2011. Unfortunately their defense couldn't stop a cold vs SF cuz imo the Saints would of made mince meat out of the Giants and then cut our defense to sliced cheese. I'm not conceding defeat to the Saints. Brady would of diced them up too. It would of came down to turnovers and probably been a high scoring affair. Btw I think we matched up better against the 49ers as well and BB certainly would of been able to stop 1 TE with a concentrated effort.

I'm pretty confident that the Pats will be the better offense this year with the additions on offense via free agency, not to mention the coaching situation over there.

 

[pherein]

I'm pretty confident that the Pats will be the better offense this year with the additions on offense via free agency, not to mention the coaching situation over there.

Im not. Saints have a proven product. Veterans are moving into Veteran positions to cover Veterans leaving. Patriots have a elite product but moving ?'s into positions to cover a stable product. Im just saying don't trust the ?'s, lol.

Completely agree, coaching is going to kill us. SP walked into a losing team and made a difference for a reason. He can't be replaced. We probably can't compete.