Belichick still greatest of all time coach?

[IllegalContact]

Maybe

 

[sean10mm]

Punting on Belichick's legacy after a 1-2 start is dumb.

What's happening that DOES make sense is that the Cult of Personality level of worship around Belichick is eroding because reality keeps kicking it in the teeth. No, Belichick can't win with "Johnny Foxboro" at QB, he can't make any collection of scrubs into champions, he can't just get away with mistakes he makes at GM indefinitely because he's an A+ coach. Wins don't "just happen" because Belichick is standing on the sidelines.

None of that was true of any of the other historically great coaches, either. It's a product of homer nonsense run wild.

Taking it further, it's LIKELY that the stuff like penalties and dumb play calling and special teams blunders are toned down or go away. Jones probably improves over time because that's what rookies who are good prospects do. What's less clear is how they get good enough OL play out of this collection of players to keep Jones alive and productive for a 17 game season, because what I'm seeing so far is less scheme issues and more just getting their asses beat.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I wonder if he retires in a year or two without having a good run or even making the playoffs, does that hurt his case for goat? Ironic that if he retired when brady left he would probably be considered better.

No, Sean McVay is 3-0, he’s the greatest of All Time.

 

[sb1]

And Spygate was some manufactured BS. Does Payton's legacy take a hit for Bountygate? Or do the Redskins or Cowboys have to deal with Uncapped Year Gate? It's stupid.

Well - Bill himself admitted he made a mistake and he'll never do something like that again. That's not really something manufactured. Bill is not a cheater but he still tried to outsmart his peers by playing lawyer with the wording of the rule and the memo that went with it- and it backfired not just on him but on us fans who had to defend it and still do.

We know he is not getting selected unanimously on the first ballot into the HOF. One voter has already said he won't vote for Bill for that reason and I'm sure he's not the only one. It sucks and a lot of that perception is Goodell's fault too - but it's also Bill's fault by his own admission.

So yeah that damaged his legacy by quite a bit imo.

 

[sb1]

What's happening that DOES make sense is that the Cult of Personality level of worship around Belichick is eroding because reality keeps kicking it in the teeth. No, Belichick can't win with "Johnny Foxboro" at QB, he can't make any collection of scrubs into champions, he can't just get away with mistakes he makes at GM indefinitely because he's an A+ coach. Wins don't "just happen" because Belichick is standing on the sidelines.

This.

There is no magical "system" that made Brady great. Brady always was. Brady winning the SB last year didn't damage our dynasty at all. It validated it. Pats had the greatest QB ever, an all time great coach and great players. That's why they won. That's what wins not some "system".

 

[Wozzy]

His assistant's aren't... and every year his assistants get head coaching jobs elsewhere and need replacing.

When Brian Flores took over he started out really rough, he got better as the season progressed and the team followed.

 

[Wozzy]

This.

There is no magical "system" that made Brady great. Brady always was. Brady winning the SB last year didn't damage our dynasty at all. It validated it. Pats had the greatest QB ever, an all time great coach and great players. That's why they won. That's what wins not some "system".

In 2001 Brady threw one TD and one INT in the entire postseason, and he was in year two as a pro.

This reimagining of the past is akin to tall tales about Paul Bunyan... but yeah, let's go with it.

 

[Pats2000]

Well - Bill himself admitted he made a mistake and he'll never do something like that again. That's not really something manufactured. Bill is not a cheater but he still tried to outsmart his peers by playing lawyer with the wording of the rule and the memo that went with it- and it backfired not just on him but on us fans who had to defend it and still do.

We know he is not getting selected unanimously on the first ballot into the HOF. One voter has already said he won't vote for Bill for that reason and I'm sure he's not the only one. It sucks and a lot of that perception is Goodell's fault too - but it's also Bill's fault by his own admission.

So yeah that damaged his legacy by quite a bit imo.

There is no way he isn't a first ballot hall of famer. I'll bet you $1,000 he makes it in. That one voter isn't going to matter the way everyoen else votes.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

It's tough, because what Belichick did before Brady wasn't that great -his 2000 season with the Pats was worse than what we had with Carroll, was it not?

More importantly, Sean Payton is winning games with Jameis Winson and Taysom Hill, on a team that is rebuilding and doesn't even have arguably it's best player in Michael Thomas. It wouldn't look good if Payton gets 10 wins with those guys, and we finish with 6-7 wins after spending $100 in free agency. All of sudden, Payton looks like a coach that can "win with anybody".

Belichick won't be considered a "bad" coach, but I think it will no longer be controversial to argue guys like Tom Landry, Joe Gibbs (who won multiple super bowls with multiple non-HOF QBs)

 

[Huckleberry1]

BB already has a solid legacy. As a coach he might be the greatest.
Without Brady we all knew it was going to be painful and slow rebuild.
Right now the issue lies with the o-line. Hire a new o-line coach. Time to also get some talent on that o-line. Every QB would get killed behind that line. Gotta fix the issue asap before it’s too late and you get another QB career cut short due to hits. Look at the Colts…they didn’t take their o-line issues seriously and Andrew Luck had to call it quits.
Without a decent o-line you aren’t going to win any games or even make it to the playoffs.

At this point I’d say just keep running the ball. We are putting way too much on the plate for Mac. Throwing 50+ times for a rookie is a recipe for disaster. McDaniels needs to get his head out of his ass or be fired after this season.

NEM

 

[sb1]

It's tough, because what Belichick did before Brady wasn't that great -his 2000 season with the Pats was worse than what we had with Carroll, was it not?

More importantly, Sean Payton is winning games with Jameis Winson and Taysom Hill, on a team that is rebuilding and doesn't even have arguably it's best player in Michael Thomas. It wouldn't look good if Payton gets 10 wins with those guys, and we finish with 6-7 wins after spending $100 in free agency. All of sudden, Payton looks like a coach that can "win with anybody".

Belichick won't be considered a "bad" coach, but I think it will no longer be controversial to argue guys like Tom Landry, Joe Gibbs (who won multiple super bowls with multiple non-HOF QBs)

Gibbs was as underrated a great coach as one gets. If that makes sense.

 

[amfootball]

It's tough, because what Belichick did before Brady wasn't that great -his 2000 season with the Pats was worse than what we had with Carroll, was it not?

More importantly, Sean Payton is winning games with Jameis Winson and Taysom Hill, on a team that is rebuilding and doesn't even have arguably it's best player in Michael Thomas. It wouldn't look good if Payton gets 10 wins with those guys, and we finish with 6-7 wins after spending $100 in free agency. All of sudden, Payton looks like a coach that can "win with anybody".

Belichick won't be considered a "bad" coach, but I think it will no longer be controversial to argue guys like Tom Landry, Joe Gibbs (who won multiple super bowls with multiple non-HOF QBs)

THIS.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yes.

Let me know when another coach wins 6 Super Bowls and has 311 wins.

 

[XLIX]

His coaching legacy will suffer if he continues to be mired in mediocrity and if Brady wins another championship.

Having said that, I think it is Belichick the GM who has totally screwed Belichick the HC.

 

[Tottie]

Legacy won't suffer in the long term. What's happening here is people comparing a coach to a player. This makes 0 sense as the Brady side of things has said for over a year now. BB has been amazing for NE and taken advantage of his players in a way that no other coach has done in history. He needs to be compared to other coaches, not to players. He will never be on par with his players or the QB that closed out big games for 2 decades. That doesn't weaken his case. All the great coaches had elite QBs that's just how it goes.

 

[amfootball]

Legacy won't suffer in the long term. What's happening here is people comparing a coach to a player. This makes 0 sense as the Brady side of things has said for over a year now. BB has been amazing for NE and taken advantage of his players in a way that no other coach has done in history. He needs to be compared to other coaches, not to players. He will never be on par with his players or the QB that closed out big games for 2 decades. That doesn't weaken his case. All the great coaches had elite QBs that's just how it goes.

I agree in theory what is tough for Bill is his record without Brady. It tilts things in favor of his QB being the main reason for the success because he is sub .500 with anyone else over 8+ years and two teams.

 

[Tottie]

I agree in theory what is tough for Bill is his record without Brady. It tilts things in favor of his QB being the main reason for the success because he is sub .500 with anyone else over 8+ years and two teams.

Absolutely his entire body of work counts, but does it matter? When he had Brady he won 6 and went to 9 and his players played big in big games in all phases. The fact that he doesn't win them without Brady doesn't mean anything in terms of comparing coach vs coach. They all had great QBs and players.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Legacy won't suffer in the long term. What's happening here is people comparing a coach to a player. This makes 0 sense as the Brady side of things has said for over a year now. BB has been amazing for NE and taken advantage of his players in a way that no other coach has done in history. He needs to be compared to other coaches, not to players. He will never be on par with his players or the QB that closed out big games for 2 decades. That doesn't weaken his case. All the great coaches had elite QBs that's just how it goes.

The reason they are compared is because Bill was struggling pretty badly until Brady stabilized the QB position. Now he’s gone and we seeing pre Brady all over again.

 

[amfootball]

Absolutely his entire body of work counts, but does it matter? When he had Brady he won 6 and went to 9 and his players played big in big games in all phases. The fact that he doesn't win them without Brady doesn't mean anything in terms of comparing coach vs coach. They all had great QBs and players.

It absolutely matters when looking at coaches like Gibbs and Parcells who won multiple SBs with different QBs all of whom were not HoF worthy. I also think coaches like Reid who had a lot of success with McNabb and Smith prior to Mahomes starts to creep in as well as Payton who is now 11-2 with QBs who are JAGs for the last 2+ seasons without Brees. Having the GOAT and winning and being a losing coach without him changes the overall perceptions specifically in comparison to other great coaches.

 

[Tottie]

It absolutely matters when looking at coaches like Gibbs and Parcells who won multiple SBs with different QBs all of whom were not HoF worthy. I also think coaches like Reid who had a lot of success with McNabb and Smith prior to Mahomes starts to creep in as well as Payton who is now 11-2 with QBs who are JAGs for the last 2+ seasons without Brees. Having the GOAT and winning and being a losing coach without him changes the overall perceptions specifically in comparison to other great coaches.

It absolutely does matter but he's still up there and probably still #1 regardless of if he loses every game until he retires. At first people will have hot takes but as he hits the HOF people will look at the body of work. Too many championships to discount. Too many good game plans.