Belichick criticism mega-thread

[Brick27]

You answer my question first, then I'll explain the "He shouldn't have traded Brady, and then there wouldn't have been a losing year" aspect of Patriots life to you.

If you’re going to just parrot the media drivel that you’ve chosen to suck up, I’m not sure what use it is discussing this. I like how you immediately decided to establish your anti Bill position though.

 

[Deus Irae]

If you’re going to just parrot the media drivel that you’ve chosen to suck up, I’m not sure what use it is discussing this. I like how you immediately decided to establish your anti Bill position though.

I'm not parroting anyone, and I'm not anti-Bill. Now stop trying to flip this away from my questioning of your ridiculous earlier post and either answer the question or acknowledge that you were just being a clown before.

 

[Brick27]

I'm not parroting anyone, and I'm not anti-Bill. Now stop trying to flip this away from my questioning of your ridiculous earlier post and either answer the question or acknowledge that you were just being a clown before.

Gotcha. So I was ridiculous to suggest one losing season in 20 deserves a level head lol. Got it. Take your fake tough guy act elsewhere.

 

[Brick27]

I'm not parroting anyone, and I'm not anti-Bill. Now stop trying to flip this away from my questioning of your ridiculous earlier post and either answer the question or acknowledge that you were just being a clown before.

Gotcha. So I was ridiculous to suggest one losing season in 20 deserves a level head lol. Got it. Take your fake tough guy act elsewhere. Nobody respects you here

 

[Deus Irae]

That is total BS. Imo.

Brady absorbed everything BB taught him. There's documentaries showing Brady learning how to read a defense from BB. Brady was BB'S best student.

Brady mastered what he learned and took it to Tampa Bay.

One of the real problems in discussions today is the overwhelming amount of binary thinking. It's obvious that Brady needed a coach/teacher long into his NFL career. But that doesn't mean that he would have failed without BB. There are any number of excellent coaches/coordinators who might (repeat might) have produced a Brady as good as the one we see today, or a lesser but still excellent Brady.

And it's also obvious that BB hasn't been nearly as successful a coach without Brady. We don't have to go into "might" with that, because we have Cleveland, and the pre-Brady time, and 2008 to show it. But that doesn't mean that Brady is the ONLY QB that BB could win with.So, it's fair for people to argue the spaces in between those lines, IMO, but not outside of them.

And that holds true for the "BB v. Brady" argument in terms of importance. It's fair to argue percentages, but if you're (general "you", not specific) arguing a 100% side for either man, and you're not just being hyperbolic, you're either a troll or a fool.

 

[Deus Irae]

Gotcha. So I was ridiculous to suggest one losing season in 20 deserves a level head lol. Got it. Take your fake tough guy act elsewhere.

That's not remotely close to what I said. But thanks for making my point, even without answering my question.

 

[Brick27]

That's not remotely close to what I said. But thanks for making my point, even without answering my question.

Thanks for being the classic forum b*tchboy looking for an argument on an online forum for no reason because your life has no meaning? I guess? Us fans will carry on.

 

[jmt57]

Please inform us all where, in the NFL, the line between successful/failure is. What's the win total? Is a playoff appearance the line? A particular round in the playoffs?


Where's that line of demarcation?

First of all, great to see you back. Sincerely.

To me it is all relative. The woman I will spend the rest of my life with grew up in Canton Ohio. To her, this was an incredibly successful season. The team she grew up rooting for not only won a playoff game for the first time in 26 years (ironically, when Belichick defeated Parcells and the Pats, they also did it by beating their close nemesis and arch rival (Pittsburgh). As an added bonus, her far distant #2 team won the Super Bowl (we have lived in the Tampa area for many years).

For a team like Green Bay it is a disappointment: you finished first in your conference, but didn't make it to the Super Bowl. Same goes for the Steelers, after beginning 11-0 and then losing five of their final six games. Other teams taking a step back after being in the playoffs: Texans and Eagles, for example - very disappointing.

In the preseason prediction thread, I went with the Pats going 7-9, so I wasn't surprised on the final outcome. My thought was that the defense would be really bad due to all the losses on defense to free agency, but that wasn't that big a deal. While I knew the offense would take a step back, I did not expect it to be as horrific as it was; that was most certainly disappointing.


I suppose my level of expectation is far lower than most. Whatever team you root for, you are betting on one horse versus a field of 31 other ponies. To expect to win it all even half the time is preposterous. Statistically in a 1:32 cycle, a fan should reasonably expect his team to win it all three times over an 80-year life expectancy.

As a fan, I've been playing with house money for quite some time. Losing one round at the table by going 7-9 is no big deal at this point for me.

 

[Deus Irae]

Thanks for being the classic forum b*tchboy looking for an argument on an online forum for no reason because your life has no meaning? I guess? Us fans will carry on.

I wasn't looking for an argument. You came in and had your back and forth with JMT where you were denigrating the posters in here. So I asked you a question about your position. You've chosen to dodge that question, and attack me, likely because you realized that your initial post was asinine.

And, as for me being "anti-Bill", let me refer you to a poster earlier in this very thread:

Belichick criticism mega-thread

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

A lot of our “fans” suck, quite frankly, and most don’t know how to change a tire.

I just figure I’ll YouTube how to do it if AAA can’t get there.

 

[Deus Irae]

First of all, great to see you back. Sincerely.

To me it is all relative. The woman I will spend the rest of my life with grew up in Canton Ohio. To her, this was an incredibly successful season. The team she grew up rooting for not only won a playoff game for the first time in 26 years (ironically, when Belichick defeated Parcells and the Pats, they also did it by beating their close nemesis and arch rival (Pittsburgh). As an added bonus, her far distant #2 team won the Super Bowl (we have lived in the Tampa area for many years).

For a team like Green Bay it is a disappointment: you finished first in your conference, but didn't make it to the Super Bowl. Same goes for the Steelers, after beginning 11-0 and then losing five of their final six games. Other teams taking a step back after being in the playoffs: Texans and Eagles, for example - very disappointing.

In the preseason prediction thread, I went with the Pats going 7-9, so I wasn't surprised on the final outcome. My thought was that the defense would be really bad due to all the losses on defense to free agency, but that wasn't that big a deal. While I knew the offense would take a step back, I did not expect it to be as horrific as it was; that was most certainly disappointing.


I suppose my level of expectation is far lower than most. Whatever team you root for, you are betting on one horse versus a field of 31 other ponies. To expect to win it all even half the time is preposterous. Statistically in a 1:32 cycle, a fan should reasonably expect his team to win it all three times over an 80-year life expectancy.

As a fan, I've been playing with house money for quite some time. Losing one round at the table by going 7-9 is no big deal at this point for me.

Thanks for the welcome back. It's truly appreciated.



Also, thanks for answering the question, and you made one of the two points I was going for. The notion of a successful season is going to vary for different people. Heck, it's even going to vary for the same person, depending upon the context of the question.

7-9 was an absolute disaster for a team that won 12 games in what was considered a down year the season before, and has been competing for nothing but championships for the better part of 20 years.

On the other hand, going 7-9 with a quarterback who played like he didn't belong starting on a college team, never mind an NFL team, is at least arguably a pretty solid accomplishment.


I'll leave it there, because my position on BB's offseason maneuvers was clear enough that I don't want to pound the table about the in season stuff, beyond the obvious, because people will think I'm piling on when I'd just be catching up after being away.

 

[Tony2046]

One of the real problems in discussions today is the overwhelming amount of binary thinking. It's obvious that Brady needed a coach/teacher long into his NFL career. But that doesn't mean that he would have failed without BB. There are any number of excellent coaches/coordinators who might (repeat might) have produced a Brady as good as the one we see today, or a lesser but still excellent Brady.

And it's also obvious that BB hasn't been nearly as successful a coach without Brady. We don't have to go into "might" with that, because we have Cleveland, and the pre-Brady time, and 2008 to show it. But that doesn't mean that Brady is the ONLY QB that BB could win with.So, it's fair for people to argue the spaces in between those lines, IMO, but not outside of them.

And that holds true for the "BB v. Brady" argument in terms of importance. It's fair to argue percentages, but if you're (general "you", not specific) arguing a 100% side for either man, and you're not just being hyperbolic, you're either a troll or a fool.

I would never argue 100% either way. That would be foolish. I've always thought that it's been more Brady than BB type of guy.

But I've also been a guy that enjoyed the totality of their relationship which has been unprecedented. And if you told me that I would be able to enjoy six super bowl wins in the next twenty years I'd take it easily despite how it would end.

I thoroughly enjoyed watching TB winning his seventh ring and doing it in historic fashion. It's amazing to me that no matter how high someone raises the "Goat" requirements Brady surpasses them. It's unbelievable. I think he has finally achieved a level that is beyond debate. It's over.


But still I see the way he won had inklings of a Patriots style of offense. He brought that with him. He brought the Patriot way with him.

 

[catent]

Sports Illustrated: SI reports (quoting Arians) that Brady was driven to win to prove Patriots success was him and not Belichick

Magnificent Seventh: How Brady’s Bucs Became Super Bowl Champions

A bold experiment, a midseason slump and a “melding of the minds” between aging coach and legendary QB. How a season was saved and a champion emerged.

www.si.com

“Tom is playing for his teammates right now,” Arians said. “He wants those guys to experience what he’s experienced six times. I think personally, too, he’s making a statement, you know? It wasn’t all coach [Bill] Belichick.”

You really warped that quote. Read it again.

Arians said, "I think personally, too, he’s making a statement, you know? It wasn’t all coach [Bill] Belichick.”

 

[catent]

I would never argue 100% either way. That would be foolish. I've always thought that it's been more Brady than BB type of guy.

But I've also been a guy that enjoyed the totality of their relationship which has been unprecedented. And if you told me that I would be able to enjoy six super bowl wins in the next twenty years I'd take it easily despite how it would end.

I thoroughly enjoyed watching TB winning his seventh ring and doing it in historic fashion. It's amazing to me that no matter how high someone raises the "Goat" requirements Brady surpasses them. It's unbelievable. I think he has finally achieved a level that is beyond debate. It's over.


But still I see the way he won had inklings of a Patriots style of offense. He brought that with him. He brought the Patriot way with him.

It was Brady to the extent that Brady quarterbacked the team for two decades. It was Belichick to the extent that he taught, mentored, developed Brady, and brought in offensive staff (McDaniels) who can implement an effective offensive strategy. Brady was more responsible insofar as he actually plays, but it couldn't have happened without the both of them.

As you said, as the Bucs' found success late in the season it was a clone of New England's offense. Lots of pre-snap motion, short-MOF passing game, some timely shots, PA, screens/dump-offs to the RBs.

It's a really good offensive approach that was executed by the GOAT QB with a star-spangled cast around him. I would argue, however, that the shift in offensive scheme was just as important as anything else in Tampa ultimately winning the Super Bowl. With an uninspiring scheme they struggled for the first half of the season at times, and yet took off once Brady took control and weeded out Arians' schemes.

While Brady deserves all the credit for what he did in Tampa, it was absolutely a masterclass in performance, leadership, and mentorship, I don't think it's a stretch to say that he wouldn't have been capable of doing everything he did without the time he spent in New England under Belichick and McDaniels.

 

[Ring 6]

You’re not wrong at all. Majority of this board doesn’t care for watching the actual games or breaking down X’s and O’s. They’d rather parrot the vial hypocritical scumbags that vacate Boston sports media and act holier than thou. They’d rather have the irrational idea of easy street, and assume anything that isn’t a Super Bowl year (which they’ll still criticize for style points) is a whopping failure. A lot of our “fans” suck, quite frankly, and most don’t know how to change a tire. That’s Boston (and New England to a good degree) for you.

You answer my question first, then I'll explain the "He shouldn't have traded Brady, and then there wouldn't have been a losing year" aspect of Patriots life to you.

He didn’t trade Brady. Brady was a free agent and told the patriots he was leaving and there was nothing they could do to keep him

 

[venecol]

That is total BS. Imo.

Brady absorbed everything BB taught him. There's documentaries showing Brady learning how to read a defense from BB. Brady was BB'S best student.

Brady mastered what he learned and took it to Tampa Bay.

Are you saying Brady took the pebble from BB's hand and is destined to wander in Florida for three seasons before being retired? Sounds about right.

 

[venecol]

I would never argue 100% either way. That would be foolish. I've always thought that it's been more Brady than BB type of guy.

But I've also been a guy that enjoyed the totality of their relationship which has been unprecedented. And if you told me that I would be able to enjoy six super bowl wins in the next twenty years I'd take it easily despite how it would end.

I thoroughly enjoyed watching TB winning his seventh ring and doing it in historic fashion. It's amazing to me that no matter how high someone raises the "Goat" requirements Brady surpasses them. It's unbelievable. I think he has finally achieved a level that is beyond debate. It's over.


But still I see the way he won had inklings of a Patriots style of offense. He brought that with him. He brought the Patriot way with him.

Agree with this 100%.

I haven't really dwelled into the BB vs. Brady camp because we have many others doing it already. I posted a chart (which I can't find) when I first joined that showed the number of coaches and starting QBs every team had since 2000. NEP stood out in sharp contrast to the rest. Typically, the teams that had the fewest different coaches & QBs had the most success (playoff wise). The real answer is both, simply because the length of time they stayed together, gave the team the stability It needed to accomplish what they did. I doubt this ever gets repeated again, and to me that's because of Brady. BB lucked out in getting the GOAT, who is the only QB that could've put up with BB for that long (this is no dig at BB).

I guessed Pats would go 8-8 before season started, so 7-9 wasn't a surprise. If I have any complaint at all towards BB is the lack of planning for continuity in the QB position, which is surprising coming from one of the greatest minds in football.

As far as Brady goes, I'm just happy for him. I lived many years in Tampa, got married there and both my kids were born there, so I'm happy for the Bucs as well. That poor fan base deserved a little GOAT magic, lol.

Go Pats.

 

[Tony2046]

Are you saying Brady took the pebble from BB's hand and is destined to wander in Florida for three seasons before being retired? Sounds about right.

Yes Grasshopper.

 

[upstater1]

It's interesting that a lot of people have the same criticism. That he might be a great coach but his GM skills have sucked. Maybe time for Kraft to separate the roles.

I said the exact opposite. LOL

 

[upstater1]

Jason Licht? He thought adding Brady, Gronk and Brown could win a Championship. He was right. And his drafting has been phenomenal.

Is that why the vast majority of Bucs fans wanted to fire him?