BB on Brady playing when he's 50: If anyone can do it it's him

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Because he didn't want to be here anymore

You and I both know this is some serious revisionism. 95% of the talk on this forum was maybe Bill should consider re-signing Tom for one year only and very cheap. Most everyone thought Tom was toast. The board was very optimistic about Stidham. The beat writers, Lombardi, etc. were pumping up Stidham.

It’s okay to just admit it. Tom had tennis elbow in 2019; he didn’t look good. For the first time in career, he looked defeated and finished. I thought so too. But then again, I don’t have access to that medical information like the Patriots do. No reason to revise history to defend Bill here. He made a mistake. Whether or not Tom would have returned is tough to gauge when the team clearly, obviously (you know it) wanted to make it clear he’d only be back under their conditions, which was known to be a deal breaker with year-to-year skepticism. The team is responsible for convincing a free agent to stay, not the other way around. Tampa made Tom feel valued and secure long-term; the Patriots opted to not even try.

Very few on this forum felt the Patriots made the wrong move, and even fewer believed that Tom, not the team, was more responsible for the decision to part.

 

[catent]

That's just not accurate. Brady wanted to stay. Brady wanted a multi-year contract. Bill wouldn't give him one. Brady didn't want to stay going on annual contracts knowing how cut throat Bill was, so he asked in return for team not to apply franchise tag and allow him to become a FA.

There was a majority of posters that agreed with Bill:
"Why should they take risk on an old QB that may fall off a cliff."
"Bill always says, better a year early than a year late."

And more utter nonsense as if Brady was a JAG.

Truth is, Bill was dead wrong. All the posters that sided with Bill and had no problem chasing Brady out of town were dead wrong. The reckoning is coming on Sunday, October 3rd and as a Pats fan that didn't want to see him leave, it's going to suuuck.

Please spare me any cap arguments: see TB Bucs 2021.

You genuinely think folks here "chased" Brady out of town? Dude is the freaking GOAT - this fanbase loves him, Belichick has said countless times that there is no other quarterback he'd rather have.

I think a lot of things led to Brady's departure, but the end-all-be-all is Belichick's refusal to extend an "until you're 45" extension during the time span from 2017 - 2019, and that's basically it.

If Belichick was willing to commit to Brady through 45, he'd be here, regardless of how the roster looked from a talent perspective, scheme, Guerrero, rumblings about frustrations with offensive personnel/approach and Brady's lack of input, etc -- if Belichick was willing to indicate via a contract a commitment/belief in Brady, he'd still be here IMO. It was a mistake to not retain Brady given his level of play.

The stuff about people chasing Brady out of town (Belichick included) is just not true IMO. I'd bet my bottom dollar that if you surveyed the folks who frequent this forum the most, 90-95%+ would indicate they still want Brady in a Pats' uniform. I don't think Belichick's old-school adherence to rigid organizational principles (to a fault, at times) is equivalent to intentionally chasing Brady out of town.

He certainly didn't treat Brady differently than he would anyone else, which was a mistake ... because he's Tom Brady, but I don't think Belichick consciously thought, "I don't want Tom around anymore", and then proceeded to deliberately sabotaged their relationship in order to chase Brady off. That is what "chasing someone off" implies to me.

 

[venecol]

Lord that was a good post. People....and media like drama and stories. This could have all come down to. Bill knew the team was going to have to rebuild, and frankly they had no money to give Brady and Brady wanted to keep playing, so he said hey what a challange it would be to go try out another team and in his 40's Brady probably did not want to go through another rebuild, so the split happened and that was it. The notion that Bill said in an evil voice, I want rid of Brady he is taking all my accolades...I will show the world I can win it all without him and he will fail if he leaves me....HA HA HA HA I will show them all!!! Yeah that probably didnt happen.

I wouldn't be too sure that Bill's arrogance didn't contribute to Brady's departure. Maybe he thought Brady wouldn't leave since he seems to have been caught off guard (no QB succession plan unless we believe he thought Stidham was the answer).

Or maybe, after winning the 2018 SB (HOF defensive performance), & winning by running the ball; he thought he could possibly win with an Avg QB. This may explain why (??) he would sign Cam to replace Brady.

It's been nothing short of amusing to see everyone say this and that about the Patriots, their winning, their ways and how Bill can do it again; while completely minimizing Brady being the QB during the entire 20 years. Almost as if you can just erase him and the results would've been the same:

1. PW(Bill) + TFB = SB wins

Therefore,

2. PW(Bill) + Avg QB = SB wins

Thus,

3. TFB = Avg QB

Which is completely false.

 

[catent]

I wouldn't be too sure that Bill's arrogance didn't contribute to Brady's departure. Maybe he thought Brady wouldn't leave since he seems to have been caught off guard (no QB succession plan unless we believe he thought Stidham was the answer).

Or maybe, after winning the 2018 SB (HOF defensive performance), & winning by running the ball; he thought he could possibly win with an Avg QB. This may explain why (??) he would sign Cam to replace Brady.

It's been nothing short of amusing to see everyone say this and that about the Patriots, their winning, their ways and how Bill can do it again; while completely minimizing Brady being the QB during the entire 20 years. Almost as if you can just erase him and the results would've been the same:

1. PW(Bill) + TFB = SB wins

Therefore,

2. PW(Bill) + Avg QB = SB wins

Thus,

3. TFB = Avg QB

Which is completely false.

And this is where you lose me, man. This is the bad-faith stuff I was referring to before that IIB asked for.

"Belichick's arrogance (possibly) contribute[d] to Brady's departure"
"He thought he could possibly win with an average QB, which may explain why he signed Cam"

Bad-faith assumptions, theorizing that Belichick's ego is so great that he wanted to stick it to folks by jettisoning Brady and intentionally signing the most mediocre QB he could find, just to prove he can win with a less talented QB. It doesn't make sense.

Now, if you took that in the direction of relative value, looking at cap hit weighed with player production, then you're getting somewhere ... but Belichick isn't going to obtain an average QB for no other reason than to say he can win with an average QB.

People make mistakes, they screw up, they misread situations, they reflect on those things and often indicate they'd approach them differently in the future. Brady is an outlier and he clearly should've been kept - it was a mistake not to keep him. A mistake /=/ bad intent.

 

[venecol]

You genuinely think folks here "chased" Brady out of town? Dude is the freaking GOAT - this fanbase loves him, Belichick has said countless times that there is no other quarterback he'd rather have.

I think a lot of things led to Brady's departure, but the end-all-be-all is Belichick's refusal to extend an "until you're 45" extension during the time span from 2017 - 2019, and that's basically it.

If Belichick was willing to commit to Brady through 45, he'd be here, regardless of how the roster looked from a talent perspective, scheme, Guerrero, rumblings about frustrations with offensive personnel/approach and Brady's lack of input, etc -- if Belichick was willing to indicate via a contract a commitment/belief in Brady, he'd still be here IMO. It was a mistake to not retain Brady given his level of play.

The stuff about people chasing Brady out of town (Belichick included) is just not true IMO. I'd bet my bottom dollar that if you surveyed the folks who frequent this forum the most, 90-95%+ would indicate they still want Brady in a Pats' uniform. I don't think Belichick's old-school adherence to rigid organizational principles (to a fault, at times) is equivalent to intentionally chasing Brady out of town.

He certainly didn't treat Brady differently than he would anyone else, which was a mistake ... because he's Tom Brady, but I don't think Belichick consciously thought, "I don't want Tom around anymore", and then proceeded to deliberately sabotaged their relationship in order to chase Brady off. That is what "chasing someone off" implies to me.

Your recollection and mine differ. There was a majority of posters here on this forum that were not willing to give the GOAT a multi-year contract, which is all he wanted. Bill obviously wasn't either. Thus he left. It's really that simple. Obviously there were other underlying matters that we'll never be privy to but the bottom line is pretty much everyone wanted to treat the GOAT like a JAG.

"Chasing him out of town" is a hyperbolic expression to reinforce my point. There were no actual pitch forks and torches.

I mean the same discussion is happening now over Gilmore and most don't want to extend him any courtesies because, wait for it, he's on the wrong side of 30!

Don't you know, it's the Patriots Way to cut or "chase" vets out of town, specially ones that have been clutch and contributed, because, like Bill says: "better a year early than a year late."

I swear sometimes its like being in a dance of chickens. Yet, Bill has no problem hanging on to newbies that utterly suck like Harry and Stidham. It's madness I tell you, madness. Lmao

 

[venecol]

Bad-faith assumptions, theorizing that Belichick's ego is so great that he wanted to stick it to folks by jettisoning Brady and intentionally signing the most mediocre QB he could find, just to prove he can win with a less talented QB. It doesn't make sense.

People make mistakes, they screw up, they misread situations, they reflect on those things and often indicate they'd approach them differently in the future. Brady is an outlier and he clearly should've been kept - it was a mistake not to keep him. A mistake /=/ bad intent.

I mean, that's exactly what happened. You can call it what you want. Maybe me being older than you leads me to having less faith in people's good nature.

It's not important. What's done is done. What isn't done yet, is Bill being able to win SBs with just an average QB, which is something I've heard over and over on this forum.

 

[Pats1971]

I wouldn't be too sure that Bill's arrogance didn't contribute to Brady's departure. Maybe he thought Brady wouldn't leave since he seems to have been caught off guard (no QB succession plan unless we believe he thought Stidham was the answer).

Or maybe, after winning the 2018 SB (HOF defensive performance), & winning by running the ball; he thought he could possibly win with an Avg QB. This may explain why (??) he would sign Cam to replace Brady.

It's been nothing short of amusing to see everyone say this and that about the Patriots, their winning, their ways and how Bill can do it again; while completely minimizing Brady being the QB during the entire 20 years. Almost as if you can just erase him and the results would've been the same:

1. PW(Bill) + TFB = SB wins

Therefore,

2. PW(Bill) + Avg QB = SB wins

Thus,

3. TFB = Avg QB

Which is completely false.

I am not going to pretend to know about what happened. I just do not want to believe Bill was that petty I guess.

 

[Pats1971]

I don't believe I did either. You said, "I have seen worst rosters than the patriots have right now win the superbowl with Brady". My question was, "Have you seen worse rosters than the 2019 & 2020 teams win Super Bowls with Brady?". As far as I can tell, we're using essentially the same language/phrasing.


The Patriots have appeared in 9 Super Bowls and won 6 of them from 2001 -> 2018. You don't reach that level of success by throwing out sh*t rosters every year, no matter how good your QB is.

Troy Brown, Welker, Moss, Gronk, AHern, Branch, LaFell, Edelman, Amendola, Kevin Faulk, James White ... and I'm sure I'm missing some other pass-catchers who contributed over the years. Brady had a lot of really good players to throw to during his time in New England, not to mention a top-5 offensive line in the vast majority of his seasons with the Patriots (which is equally as important as receiving targets). The personnel was considerably less talented in 2019/2020 (especially 2020, although not relevant to Brady at this point), but they've largely had a pretty talented group of 53 players over the past two decades.


Moss was not done in 2006/2007; he was still 4-5 years away from done. He is arguably the best receiver to ever play the game and the Patriots got 2-3 seasons from him during the latter part of his prime years.


It's hard to consistently win the NFL, period. If you have a really talented team, an exceptional QB, and a quality coaching staff (as the Patriots did for two decades), there's a good chance you'll win a lot of games, but it's still not easy. If you lack overall talent, have a bad QB, and/or poor coaching, life will be hard. You need all three (overall team talent, quarterback play, and coaching) to be good.

We know the Patriots have pretty good coaching. If Mac turns out to be competent and they are able to add a few cornerstones to the roster via the draft, I think they'll have a good chance to be consistently good for awhile longer, post-Brady (assuming Mac isn't abducted by aliens). If they're unable to integrate the new additions, don't draft well in the future, and/or Mac starts playing like crap, then they won't be very good.

We'll see.

I didnt say they had **** rosters. I said Brady can take a roster that has leaks and and win a superbowl, when others couldnt. Go look at what they surround Dak with? There are teams that basically try and give everything to the QB, and it produces a lot of stats, then the QB demands a ton of money and they are in cap hell. I am not saying what Bill did was wrong, I am saying he could not have done it without a QB like Brady. Bill went out and spent 150 mil in free agency this year, he never did this when they had brady, why? Because they didnt need to. Brady made it easier to do all these value things. For one he never held the team hostage on a contract, two, he could make a team better. Hell he did it in Tampa...after the fact they are called a super team, yet they never even went to the playoffs. Had the least amount of wins in two decades, and had not won a playoff game in 18 years. Brady comes on the team, they win the superbowl. All of the sudden Arians is a genius, the OC is up for coaching jobs, and tampa is a super team. Go figure.

 

[RobertWeathers]

You and I both know this is some serious revisionism. 95% of the talk on this forum was maybe Bill should consider re-signing Tom for one year only and very cheap. Most everyone thought Tom was toast. The board was very optimistic about Stidham. The beat writers, Lombardi, etc. were pumping up Stidham.

It’s okay to just admit it. Tom had tennis elbow in 2019; he didn’t look good. For the first time in career, he looked defeated and finished. I thought so too. But then again, I don’t have access to that medical information like the Patriots do. No reason to revise history to defend Bill here. He made a mistake. Whether or not Tom would have returned is tough to gauge when the team clearly, obviously (you know it) wanted to make it clear he’d only be back under their conditions, which was known to be a deal breaker with year-to-year skepticism. The team is responsible for convincing a free agent to stay, not the other way around. Tampa made Tom feel valued and secure long-term; the Patriots opted to not even try.

Very few on this forum felt the Patriots made the wrong move, and even fewer believed that Tom, not the team, was more responsible for the decision to part.

I'm going to my grave believing Tom didn't want to be here and because of that position BB didn't want him.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That's just not accurate. Brady wanted to stay. Brady wanted a multi-year contract. Bill wouldn't give him one. Brady didn't want to stay going on annual contracts knowing how cut throat Bill was, so he asked in return for team not to apply franchise tag and allow him to become a FA.

There was a majority of posters that agreed with Bill:
"Why should they take risk on an old QB that may fall off a cliff."
"Bill always says, better a year early than a year late."

And more utter nonsense as if Brady was a JAG.

Truth is, Bill was dead wrong. All the posters that sided with Bill and had no problem chasing Brady out of town were dead wrong. The reckoning is coming on Sunday, October 3rd and as a Pats fan that didn't want to see him leave, it's going to suuuck.

Please spare me any cap arguments: see TB Bucs 2021.

See my post to Ice.

 

[venecol]

See my post to Ice.

How convenient to say: Bill really wanted him to stay but he knew Brady didn't want to stay so Bill didn't want him to stay. It’s Brady's fault:

1. Brady tells everyone that's listening he wants a multi-year contract and wants to play until 45 (but he really doesn't want to be here);

2. Bill only offers a one year extension (w/ couple of void yrs) because he doesn't believe Brady actually wants to stay (but is surprised when he leaves);

3. Brady rejects offer and enters FA (which is what he really wanted?). But what if Bill would've offered a multi-year contract? Does he reject that as well?

4. By all accts Bill was surprised with Brady leaving (see zero QB succession plan).

Based on the above I'd say you're going to your grave (in 40 yrs) being 10% correct on this.

 

[RobertWeathers]

How convenient to say: Bill really wanted him to stay but he knew Brady didn't want to stay so Bill didn't want him to stay. It’s Brady's fault:

1. Brady tells everyone that's listening he wants a multi-year contract and wants to play until 45 (but he really doesn't want to be here);

2. Bill only offers a one year extension (w/ couple of void yrs) because he doesn't believe Brady actually wants to stay (but is surprised when he leaves);

3. Brady rejects offer and enters FA (which is what he really wanted?). But what if Bill would've offered a multi-year contract? Does he reject that as well?

4. By all accts Bill was surprised with Brady leaving (see zero QB succession plan).

Based on the above I'd say you're going to your grave (in 40 yrs) being 10% correct on this.

I never said Bill wanted him to stay.

Bill didn't/couldn't/wouldn't pay what Tom wanted

Tom sulked and was miserable

Tom didn't participate in OTAs

Bill wanted to rebuild and knew Tom wasn't on board with that.

Tom wanted more influence on the roster construction and that wasn't going to happen.

Tom felt the Patriot Way was limiting to his TB12 brand.

When I say Bill didn't want him, I'm correct.

When I say Tom didn't want to be here, I'm correct.

If you want to blame it all on Bill, go for it.

 

[venecol]

I never said Bill wanted him to stay.

Then we agree. Bill didn't want him to stay.

Bill believing Brady didn't want to stay is irrelevant since Bill didn't want him to stay; so he only offered a 1-yr extension with a "pay cut," which Brady obviously turned down.

NFL Rumors: Here's What Bill Belichick Offered Tom Brady for Contract

According to the report, Brady would be making less money this year than he did in 2019 if he accepted the Patriots' new offer.

www.si.com

 

[RobertWeathers]

Then we agree. Bill didn't want him to stay.

Bill believing Brady didn't want to stay is irrelevant since Bill didn't want him to stay; so he only offered a 1-yr extension with a "pay cut," which Brady obviously turned down.

View attachment 35894

NFL Rumors: Here's What Bill Belichick Offered Tom Brady for Contract

According to the report, Brady would be making less money this year than he did in 2019 if he accepted the Patriots' new offer.

www.si.com

That report is false. There wasn't even an offer by Bill or Kraft.

Teams don't make salary offers to players that they know won't accept or know they don't want to be part of the organization.

Tom wanted to be a FA. The team agreed.

Mutual divorce

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

That report is false. There wasn't even an offer by Bill or Kraft.

Teams don't make salary offers to players that they know won't accept or know they don't want to be part of the organization.

Tom wanted to be a FA. The team agreed.

Mutual divorce

Semantics...but even playing around with words doesn't support the conclusion.

Had the Patriots wanted Brady to stay and committed to him, as they had a long window of opportunity, he'd still be in New England. If you're arguing Brady didn't want to be back, based on where Brady's mindset was in February 2020, then you're absolutely right. It's like treating a woman like garbage for a few years, refusing to get engaged, then as you're breaking up, pointing out that she has moved on and wants out, so therefore it's a mutual breakup. Hey look, she found a new guy, so it was mutual. She's happy to be away, so I guess she never wanted to stay here. Total BS...Tom had talked for years about wanting to continue playing into his mid-40s and to go out on his own terms. Years.

The team clearly, obviously was skeptical about Brady for years leading up to this. You never once heard from the organization the standard statement that "we want him to retire here and go out on his own terms" or anything like that, like you do with virtually every other athlete. It was always about an inevitable head-on collision beause Brady wanted to play for longer than Bill wanted him, and Bill would have a younger, prettier successor who cost less money. Come on...the entire board was cheering about Bill's decision and pumping up Stidham. You know this. I know this. How is this really a debate point now? There was no concern with major salary cap hurdles, Tom wanting warm weather, Tom wanting to play on a promising 7-9 team, etc. That stuff is all revisionist.

He wanted out...because he wasn't wanted. Certainly not on the level that someone should be wanted when they've played for that same organization for 20 years, won six championships, been widely regarded as the GOAT, and been a model citizen. If the Patriots wanted him to stay, they would have done so much more than they actually did.

 

[Pats1971]

I never said Bill wanted him to stay.

Bill didn't/couldn't/wouldn't pay what Tom wanted

Tom sulked and was miserable

Tom didn't participate in OTAs

Bill wanted to rebuild and knew Tom wasn't on board with that.

Tom wanted more influence on the roster construction and that wasn't going to happen.

Tom felt the Patriot Way was limiting to his TB12 brand.

When I say Bill didn't want him, I'm correct.

When I say Tom didn't want to be here, I'm correct.

If you want to blame it all on Bill, go for it.

Ok, some true some not true. Brady didnt wake up one day and decide he didnt want to be there, something lead him down that road. Was it Bill wanting to trade him and keep JG? Was it not offering him anything other than a 1 year deal? The pats rebuilt about 4 times in Brady's career, so that was not some new thing. I never heard Brady ever say he wanted influence on the roster nor have I heard that said by anyone in the patriots organization. Whats the Patriot way? There was probably some ego involved, but I am not sure its as one sided as you are making it out to be.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ok, some true some not true. Brady didnt wake up one day and decide he didnt want to be there, something lead him down that road. Was it Bill wanting to trade him and keep JG? Was it not offering him anything other than a 1 year deal? The pats rebuilt about 4 times in Brady's career, so that was not some new thing. I never heard Brady ever say he wanted influence on the roster nor have I heard that said by anyone in the patriots organization. Whats the Patriot way? There was probably some ego involved, but I am not sure its as one sided as you are making it out to be.

Why is it one sided?

I've been pretty consistent in saying both sides wanted to move on.

Tom is now in his 40s. Going through a rebuild at that age is much different than going through one in his 30s.

Who's ego are you referring to?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Semantics...but even playing around with words doesn't support the conclusion.

No semantics. A player is either offered a contract or they aren't. Tom wanted to be a FA. The NEP let him be and did not insult him with a low-ball offer.

He wanted out...because he wasn't wanted.

Correct. Bill and Bob knew what Tom wanted and needed and it wasn't a fit for the current situation here. So yes, they no longer wanted him.

 

[carmelo15]

He has a deep all star team and an impenetrable offensive line around him. There are other veteran QBs who could do the same if they had that talented group surrounding him and they worked as hard to stay in shape.

yes we know the buccaneers are a super team and have been for years now

 

[VectorPrime]

yes we know the buccaneers are a super team and have been for years now

Nothing’s more associated with perennial success than the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.