BB dragged Jones out of the field with him at the end of the game

[venecol]

Yeah, but Jones probably doesn't have the flexibility to do things Brady could do presnap. Brady can make calls and change ups at the line that I cannot see Belichick and McDaniels ever letting a rookie QB in his third game call. So far, the Pats have been keeping Jones on a short leash for most of the first three games.

Not saying Jones could do what Brady does, but you cannot start to dismiss a rookie QB because he cannot do what the GOAT can.

This is completely false no matter how many times you guys repeat this over and over again.

Josh has said the playbook is wide open to Mac. He's not being held back.

Mac has admitted changing the play to runs and has checked down instead of sticking with his 1st read.

This desire to "protect" Mac by blaming the OC, the OL, the receivers, and anyone else serves no purpose. Mac is a smart QB. He's a rookie, yes. But he has made plenty mistakes beyond issues with the OL or play calls. He's held the ball too long at times, he hasn't stuck in the pocket for his 1st read at times (Henry - even when he had time to do so), he's changed plays to runs at the line (Bolden), and he's flat out missed open receivers in downfield throws.

He seems to be risk averse. Not sure if he's sering ghosts or something he needs to outgrow from his college days.

 

[venecol]

It's time before pocket collapse, I went back and looked at it. Time to actual pressure in his face is 2.3 seconds

View attachment 36078

he's at the bottom of the league in protection time. Of course he's not making 40 yard throws.

If you look at highlights of the second half, the Aints only rushed 4. Mac had ample time to throw. He made several deep throws. He missed the majority of them. Some were short. Some were off the mark. Some where into triple coverage. Some where long. It's fantasy to believe that "ever single time " he dropped back, he had no time to make deep accurate throws. Watch the game.

 

[Rob0729]

This is completely false no matter how many times you guys repeat this over and over again.

Josh has said the playbook is wide open to Mac. He's not being held back.

Mac has admitted changing the play to runs and has checked down instead of sticking with his 1st read.

This desire to "protect" Mac by blaming the OC, the OL, the receivers, and anyone else serves no purpose. Mac is a smart QB. He's a rookie, yes. But he has made plenty mistakes beyond issues with the OL or play calls. He's held the ball too long at times, he hasn't stuck in the pocket for his 1st read at times (Henry - even when he had time to do so), he's changed plays to runs at the line (Bolden), and he's flat out missed open receivers in downfield throws.

He seems to be risk averse. Not sure if he's sering ghosts or something he needs to outgrow from his college days.

Yes, because what the Patriots say publicly is always the truth. I don't listen to press conferences because you can't get any real information from them. Of course they are managing Jones. They loosened the reigns the last game especially in the two minute drill and garbage time, but they are clearly not opening up yet. Hell, even Brady was here, the Pats quite frequently didn't open up the playbook until mid season especially on the defensive side.

And I don't know how Jones being able call an audible isn't proof they aren't managing him. When he calls an audible, it isn't like he has the entire playbook to choose from. Each play has one or two audibles associated with it. So if Jones is being managed he can check out of a play, but the audible play would be another managed play.

I am not trying to protect Mac Jones. He has been making his fair share of mistakes. But he is a rookie. He is expected to make mistakes. But there is a lot working against him on this team right now especially the o-line and the receivers are doing him no service.

And people are making way too many conclusions about his "inability" to throw the deep ball. We do not have a decent sample size. Half of his throws deep on Sunday was in garbage time where he was hucking up there just trying to make a big quick strike. There was at least one or two drops deep in that game. So leaves about 4-5 passes on Sunday and maybe 3-4 more in the other games to look at. The fallacy that he throws "flutter" balls is clearly not happening. The accuracy of the passes could be on getting on the same page with the receivers more than anything else. But accuracy is an issue of arm strength. But again, we don't have a large sample size yet.

And he is clearly not seeing ghosts because he has shown that he isn't afraid to throw the ball with a defender coming down on him. If he seeing ghosts, he would be like Tony Eason diving to the ground taking a sack before a defender even touches him with the amount of times he was hit on Sunday.

The guy completed over 70% of his passes in each of his first two games. He was fine those games. After game three, the narrative on Jones has changed including for the first two games.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

The total lack of presnap motion this year, is on the OC not on Mac. This is a huge piece not being used to help Mac (who is very smart/aware) from being able to see if a defense is in man or zone.

.

 

[venecol]

Yes, because what the Patriots say publicly is always the truth. I don't listen to press conferences because you can't get any real information from them. Of course they are managing Jones. They loosened the reigns the last game especially in the two minute drill and garbage time, but they are clearly not opening up yet. Hell, even Brady was here, the Pats quite frequently didn't open up the playbook until mid season especially on the defensive side.

And I don't know how Jones being able call an audible isn't proof they aren't managing him. When he calls an audible, it isn't like he has the entire playbook to choose from. Each play has one or two audibles associated with it. So if Jones is being managed he can check out of a play, but the audible play would be another managed play.

I am not trying to protect Mac Jones. He has been making his fair share of mistakes. But he is a rookie. He is expected to make mistakes. But there is a lot working against him on this team right now especially the o-line and the receivers are doing him no service.

And people are making way too many conclusions about his "inability" to throw the deep ball. We do not have a decent sample size. Half of his throws deep on Sunday was in garbage time where he was hucking up there just trying to make a big quick strike. There was at least one or two drops deep in that game. So leaves about 4-5 passes on Sunday and maybe 3-4 more in the other games to look at. The fallacy that he throws "flutter" balls is clearly not happening. The accuracy of the passes could be on getting on the same page with the receivers more than anything else. But accuracy is an issue of arm strength. But again, we don't have a large sample size yet.

And he is clearly not seeing ghosts because he has shown that he isn't afraid to throw the ball with a defender coming down on him. If he seeing ghosts, he would be like Tony Eason diving to the ground taking a sack before a defender even touches him with the amount of times he was hit on Sunday.

The guy completed over 70% of his passes in each of his first two games. He was fine those games. After game three, the narrative on Jones has changed including for the first two games.

So we shouldn't believe what the Patriots OC says but we should believe you?

The rest is nothing but excuses.

 

[Rob0729]

So we shouldn't believe what the Patriots OC says but we should believe you?

The rest is nothing but excuses.

You can believe me if you want, but I do not believe anything the Patriots say publicly. Neither should you.

But ok, you win. Mac Jones will never amount to anything and the Pats should have kept Brady. That is what you want to hear. So have at it. happy now?

 

[venecol]

You can believe me if you want, but I do not believe anything the Patriots say publicly. Neither should you.

But ok, you win. Mac Jones will never amount to anything and the Pats should have kept Brady. That is what you want to hear. So have at it. happy now?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying we need to evaluate Mac objectively is all. This has nothing to do with Brady.

Yes Mac is a rookie so we need to be patient but this notion that he's struggling strictly because of the OL, receivers and play calls is not being objective. It's just excuses.

What does garbage time have anything to do with his performance? If he's not getting blitzed, then he should have time to complete his passes but he didn't. Hopefully he'll be fine. I'm a tad concerned he may be risk averse. Maybe it's rookie nerves. Idk. We'll see. Big challenge coming this week. Let's see how he performs. Who was the last starting QB to lose 3 straight home games?

 

[DropKickFlutie]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying we need to evaluate Mac objectively is all. This has nothing to do with Brady.

Yes Mac is a rookie so we need to be patient but this notion that he's struggling strictly because of the OL, receivers and play calls is not being objective. It's just excuses.

What does garbage time have anything to do with his performance? If he's not getting blitzed, then he should have time to complete his passes but he didn't. Hopefully he'll be fine. I'm a tad concerned he may be risk averse. Maybe it's rookie nerves. Idk. We'll see. Big challenge coming this week. Let's see how he performs. Who was the last starting QB to lose 3 straight home games?

1. But the thing is Mac DID kill the blitz in week 1 and week 2. It was super impressive.
2. Why is it not absolutely the key reason that the OLine sucks and Mac has zero time to throw the ball? Explains why he went with the quick read in week2 so much, got criticized for it by mediots and coaches, so in week3 tried to hold it longer for longer throws and got crushed or kept throwing balls without set feet because he was running for his life. The bad OLine literally explains most of it ???
3. Are you arguing that the OLine isn't bad because it seems pretty obvious it's a bottom-3 OLine right now. Can't pass protect, can't run the ball.
4. Since you mentioned it, the oc absolutely is showing he sucks in the red zone and has no clue how to use 2 tight ends each making Kelce money. Where are the slants, play action passes to attack the endzone particularly to tight ends.

.

 

[Rob0729]

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm just saying we need to evaluate Mac objectively is all. This has nothing to do with Brady.

Yes Mac is a rookie so we need to be patient but this notion that he's struggling strictly because of the OL, receivers and play calls is not being objective. It's just excuses.

What does garbage time have anything to do with his performance? If he's not getting blitzed, then he should have time to complete his passes but he didn't. Hopefully he'll be fine. I'm a tad concerned he may be risk averse. Maybe it's rookie nerves. Idk. We'll see. Big challenge coming this week. Let's see how he performs. Who was the last starting QB to lose 3 straight home games?

I didn't say strictly, but it was the biggest reason on Sunday. He was hit what 18 times or something like that on Sunday. How many balls did Smith drop? You do have to take into effect that everyone played like crap around him. Sure he held onto the ball too long at times. He made some poor decisions. He had a few plays with mechanics issues. But I still put a majority of the blame on the players around him on Sunday.

And game one and two, I don't think he struggled. He was great in week one. He was mostly good or great in week two with a handful of questionable (one or two very questionable) throws. The only big complaints in those games about the passing game was how they got conservative in the red zone. We are talking one week of problems.

Garbage time has to do with it because on one drive had 5 passes over 20 yards in a game where he threw over 20 yards 12 times. So almost half of his deep ball passes were on that one drive in garbage time. He was the opposite of risk averse on that final drive. He was probably too aggressive with the ball. But the game was over and he was just hucking the ball out there.

And I still don't see him being risk averse. He throwing the ball to receivers while defenders are coming down on him. If he was risk averse, he would be holding onto the ball to take the sack or throwing it away. He hit Jonnu Smith down the field while being crushed and Smith dropped the ball. If Smith didn't drop the ball, people would be gushing over him on Monday no matter the result.

 

[venecol]

1. But the thing is Mac DID kill the blitz in week 1 and week 2. It was super impressive.
2. Why is it not absolutely the key reason that the OLine sucks and Mac has zero time to throw the ball? Explains why he went with the quick read in week2 so much, got criticized for it by mediots and coaches, so in week3 tried to hold it longer for longer throws and got crushed or kept throwing balls without set feet because he was running for his life. The bad OLine literally explains most of it ???
3. Are you arguing that the OLine isn't bad because it seems pretty obvious it's a bottom-3 OLine right now. Can't pass protect, can't run the ball.
4. Since you mentioned it, the oc absolutely is showing he sucks in the red zone and has no clue how to use 2 tight ends each making Kelce money. Where are the slants, play action passes to attack the endzone particularly to tight ends.

.

I'm not arguing the OL hasn't sucked or had its issues at all. I'm just saying that there were times the OL held against a normal 4-man rush and Mac had time. He wasn't pressured 100% of the time. That's a fantasy.

The runs by Bolden in the RZ, that everyone went ballistic over, was Mac switching the play, not the original play call. Mac said this himself or are we not to believe him like Rob says.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I'm not arguing the OL hasn't sucked or had its issues at all. I'm just saying that there were times the OL held against a normal 4-man rush and Mac had time. He wasn't pressured 100% of the time. That's a fantasy.

The runs by Bolden in the RZ, that everyone went ballistic over, was Mac switching the play, not the original play call. Mac said this himself or are we not to believe him like Rob says.

You're right. It's not 100%. It was 18 QB pressures. So I'm sure one can cherry pick some plays and put it on twitter like the mediots do to say 'look! Here's 1 play he blew it, guy looks open 20 yards down the field' while likely ignoring that Mac probably just took a couple hits in a row right before the play, or I've even seen ones posted in the last 7 days where a defender is literally doing a beeline for Mac's chest unblocked, clips like this used as an example of how Mac supposedly had a phantom extra 2 seconds to throw it.

I wonder if one charted all the throws, what proportion of throws Mac even had his feet set. The kid was running for his life all game. Even the Bourne TD he threw it moving off his back foot because again zero pass protection. This is going to develop really bad habits. This is how the same oc ruined Sam Bradford in 2011.....

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think Mac’s issue right now is he’s not an anticipatory passer. Whether or not that’s a learned or innate skill is something I don’t know. And to clarify, this has nothing to do with his processing, intelligence, etc. I think he’s taking high percentage throws where guys are nearing the end of their routes, and he’s hitting those targets. And that’s good. But I don’t see enough self-confidence yet that he’s knowing about a matchup advantage or anticipating a gap in the defense. I‘m sure you can find examples that refute this, but that’s the general sense I get.

If you have a guy that’s covered, but it’s a great matchup, you need to throw the ball in anticipation the player will make a play or you’ll create separation by “throwing him open.”

This may take time. Or it may be a limitation. I’m not sure. But I think just “lack of deep passes” isn’t really the main issue; it’s a symptom of the issue. Even the best QBs only complete a couple of those a game at most. I think it has more to do with developing trust in his own talent, and in the pass catchers.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think Mac’s issue right now is he’s not an anticipatory passer. Whether or not that’s a learned or innate skill is something I don’t know. And to clarify, this has nothing to do with his processing, intelligence, etc. I think he’s taking high percentage throws where guys are nearing the end of their routes, and he’s hitting those targets. And that’s good. But I don’t see enough self-confidence yet that he’s knowing about a matchup advantage or anticipating a gap in the defense. I‘m sure you can find examples that refute this, but that’s the general sense I get.

If you have a guy that’s covered, but it’s a great matchup, you need to throw the ball in anticipation the player will make a play or you’ll create separation by “throwing him open.”

This may take time. Or it may be a limitation. I’m not sure. But I think just “lack of deep passes” isn’t really the main issue; it’s a symptom of the issue. Even the best QBs only complete a couple of those a game at most. I think it has more to do with developing trust in his own talent, and in the pass catchers.

I think this is spot-on. Trust. Confidence. Anticipation. He's operating at 50% of that right now.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I think Mac’s issue right now is he’s not an anticipatory passer. Whether or not that’s a learned or innate skill is something I don’t know. And to clarify, this has nothing to do with his processing, intelligence, etc. I think he’s taking high percentage throws where guys are nearing the end of their routes, and he’s hitting those targets. And that’s good. But I don’t see enough self-confidence yet that he’s knowing about a matchup advantage or anticipating a gap in the defense. I‘m sure you can find examples that refute this, but that’s the general sense I get.

If you have a guy that’s covered, but it’s a great matchup, you need to throw the ball in anticipation the player will make a play or you’ll create separation by “throwing him open.”

This may take time. Or it may be a limitation. I’m not sure. But I think just “lack of deep passes” isn’t really the main issue; it’s a symptom of the issue. Even the best QBs only complete a couple of those a game at most. I think it has more to do with developing trust in his own talent, and in the pass catchers.

I don't know about this. Actually disagree 100% . Mac was hitting a lot of guys in stride in week1 and week2 and also all preseason. It's one of his best traits, timing and anticipation. He's not like Bledsoe

.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I don't know about this. Actually disagree 100% . Mac was hitting a lot of guys in stride in week1 and week2 and also all preseason. It's one of his best traits, timing and anticipation. He's not like Bledsoe

.

It's not the same thing as hitting guys in stride; his accuracy isn't the issue. You'd have to re-read my post...it's about pass/matchup selection, not ball placement.

 

[Rob0729]

I think Mac’s issue right now is he’s not an anticipatory passer. Whether or not that’s a learned or innate skill is something I don’t know. And to clarify, this has nothing to do with his processing, intelligence, etc. I think he’s taking high percentage throws where guys are nearing the end of their routes, and he’s hitting those targets. And that’s good. But I don’t see enough self-confidence yet that he’s knowing about a matchup advantage or anticipating a gap in the defense. I‘m sure you can find examples that refute this, but that’s the general sense I get.

If you have a guy that’s covered, but it’s a great matchup, you need to throw the ball in anticipation the player will make a play or you’ll create separation by “throwing him open.”

This may take time. Or it may be a limitation. I’m not sure. But I think just “lack of deep passes” isn’t really the main issue; it’s a symptom of the issue. Even the best QBs only complete a couple of those a game at most. I think it has more to do with developing trust in his own talent, and in the pass catchers.

According to people who watch the all 22, it may be more of the issue of the receivers not getting initial separation. That is why Bedard has been saying. I know he isn't the end all and be all, but he does watch the all 22.

It is hard to be an anticipatory passer especially as a rookie with receivers you don't have a lot of experience if the receivers are not getting any separation. Brady might have the confidence he can throw the ball to where he expects a covered receiver will be and either the receiver will get open or Brady will place it where only the receiver has a chance to get it. But I don't know if a lot of rookies have that confidence unless they are reckless like Zach Wilson.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

It's not the same thing as hitting guys in stride; his accuracy isn't the issue. You'd have to re-read my post...it's about pass/matchup selection, not ball placement.

Did you see him hit Bourne perfectly in stride on that huge slant ? He literally does this all the time when he has enough protection. His entire game is hitting guys in stride as he doesn't throw bullet passes (again a bit like Montana).

I'll go back and re-read. Maybe we are talking about slightly different things.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

According to people who watch the all 22, it may be more of the issue of the receivers not getting initial separation. That is why Bedard has been saying. I know he isn't the end all and be all, but he does watch the all 22.

It is hard to be an anticipatory passer especially as a rookie with receivers you don't have a lot of experience if the receivers are not getting any separation. Brady might have the confidence he can throw the ball to where he expects a covered receiver will be and either the receiver will get open or Brady will place it where only the receiver has a chance to get it. But I don't know if a lot of rookies have that confidence unless they are reckless like Zach Wilson.

This needs to be stickied

 

[venecol]

This needs to be stickied

I see a handful of passing attempts. He had 51. What happened in the other ones not shown?

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I see a handful of passing attempts. He had 51. What happened in the other ones not shown?

He had 15 seconds to throw, the receiver was wide open, and Mac didn't see it at all.