BB criticism, moderation, and open discussion

[Steve102]

Must admit I am disapointed with both threads. We have been blessed to have the GOAT QB and the GOAT coach on our team and yet posters go over an above to assassinate one or the other. I am looking forward to the new season , part of which is the draft , lets see how BB does in that scenario and how he builds the team. I am sure there will be enough to debate about the future.

Red states vs Blue states. It's a microcosm of society, polarized and divided. It's horrible. We had the two best guys ever. Now we've got fans arguing about who's more important.

 

[Ian]

Red states vs Blue states. It's a microcosm of society, polarized and divided. It's horrible. We had the two best guys ever. Now we've got fans arguing about who's more important.

It's definitely weird. If you asked me a decade ago when this point came if we'd be having these arguments, I would have expected some light-hearted debates over what's essentially the "chicken or the egg" theory...you probably don't have one without the other. But for people to be killing each other over it? I don't think I would have expected that.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Red states vs Blue states. It's a microcosm of society, polarized and divided. It's horrible. We had the two best guys ever. Now we've got fans arguing about who's more important.

I find it incredibly sad.

 

[Ian]

I find it incredibly sad.

It's not a tough argument. All you have to do is look back at the postseason and look at questionable coaching decisions that cost teams games, as well as quarterbacks who couldn't make plays in key moments. Separately, you may get lucky once in a while and win one, but you put those two together, you can become a dynasty. We've just been lucky enough to see it first hand for two decades. That's pretty much the story.

 

[crawhammer]

But, people using Brady's success to put BB down often overlook the fact that Brady got to pick a team that was essentially a QB away from excellence.

Name all of the other quarterbacks in the league that would have won a Super Bowl with Tampa Bay this season?

 

[Ian]

Name all of the other quarterbacks in the league that would have won a Super Bowl with Tampa Bay this season?

I love Brady, but he was part of a talented group that played well down the stretch and the defense did essentially what New England's did at the end of the last Super Bowl run. They got hot at the right time. You can't discount how well they played, because it played a major factor during that run, especially in the Packers match-up after Brady kept turning it over.

The biggest difference here was Arians got out of Tom's way and didn't mess it up. I think it would take an elite QB like Brady, Brees or Rodgers to garner that type of respect from Arians where they could help overturn initial coaching decisions and keep them out of harms way down the stretch.

Again, not taking anything away from Brady because of who he is. But to flip your argument, put Rodgers and Belichick with that Buccaneers roster and let me know how you think it turns out (and I HATE Rodgers). Pretty sure it's the same outcome.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Red states vs Blue states. It's a microcosm of society, polarized and divided. It's horrible. We had the two best guys ever. Now we've got fans arguing about who's more important.

I think this was inevitable. Whether Brady or BB left, this question would come up, especially how Brady was shown the door. Right now, BB is getting dragged through the mud while Brady is partying on boats throwing a Lombardi around.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It's definitely weird. If you asked me a decade ago when this point came if we'd be having these arguments, I would have expected some light-hearted debates over what's essentially the "chicken or the egg" theory...you probably don't have one without the other. But for people to be killing each other over it? I don't think I would have expected that.

I don't think any of us expected to be here.

Stonewalling the media and telling them "I owe you no explanation" when you're on top of the world and winning all the time is great. I sure have enjoyed it.

Stonewalling your own fanbase by telling them "I owe you no explanation" when you made no offer to the greatest player of all-time, who signed somewhere else and won a championship, not so much.

The Patriots should expect that the fans and public would want more transparency here; it's human nature that you can't really move on from something when it remains controversial and unexplained. I'm not saying we need a chronicled account of what happened or that anyone needs to scream "I messed up and I'm sorry!", but I feel like this should not be treated with the same "we did what was best for the team - so f*ck off" response that works other times.

I think some of the increased criticism of Bill is more of an angry pushback to that "you're owed nothing, and this is what was best for the team!" attitude. At that point, it becomes a kneejerk reaction to find the most blatant examples of times when Bill's decisions were not always right for the team, despite him thinking they were. I know that almost all of my negative Bill posts have been an ongoing, frustrating attempt to establish that Bill is not infallible; and I almost feel dirty doing it, because I admire him so much and have learned so much from him. I don't want to crap on him but feel like I need to lay it on thicker and thicker when some members will not just acknowledge the obvious. In the end, I just feel worse.

But as long as that stonewalling exists, this criticism and demand for accountability will only grow. It isn't the Brady departure that's polarizing people so much; it's the idea that Belichick doesn't have to explain himself or account for the decision in any way as long as it made sense to him, and that he gets an exemption from second guessing, with that same general attitude carrying over to the fans. That may have worked for everything else, but it doesn't work for the Brady decision.

 

[50-yard-line]

It's definitely weird. If you asked me a decade ago when this point came if we'd be having these arguments, I would have expected some light-hearted debates over what's essentially the "chicken or the egg" theory...you probably don't have one without the other. But for people to be killing each other over it? I don't think I would have expected that.

Social media, algorithms to strengthen confirmation bias, click-bait desperation by media outlets, and plain boredom and lack of decency spurred by the anonymity of the internet...internet spine, so to speak.

(True trolls on the internet are clinical sadists, by the way.)

I watched two movies back to back: "The Social Dilemma" and "The Great Hack." Terrifying - mostly because they explain so very much.

 

[mgcolby]

Says the man with Brady in a Bucs uniform as his avatar. Between your incessant whining about BB and DropKick's incessant whining about Josh Napa Valley could take the next decade off.

 

[venecol]

Slight note - I wasn’t actually encouraging @venecol to kill himself to avoid dealing with the pain of having that thread moved. The post was tongue-in-cheek, and gave me a good reason to post a brilliant Louis C.K. bit. I actually like venecol and hope he lives a long and prosperous life.

Huh? Did I miss a post?

 

[Kontradiction]

Huh? Did I miss a post?

Yeah. It got the proverbial axe. Just YouTube Louis C.K. “Suicide.”

 

[RobertWeathers]

It's not a tough argument. All you have to do is look back at the postseason and look at questionable coaching decisions that cost teams games, as well as quarterbacks who couldn't make plays in key moments. Separately, you may get lucky once in a while and win one, but you put those two together, you can become a dynasty. We've just been lucky enough to see it first hand for two decades. That's pretty much the story.

There are some topics that are worth debating. Foreign policy, term-limits, taxation, cause of climate change, etc.

Debating BB/TB12 is the most galactically stupid debate of all-time.

Criticizing BB for draft picks, moving on from Tom, roster decisions, 4th and 2, etc are fine.

The folks that are constantly marginalizing a 6X Super Bowl winning coach are clueless.

 

[Steve102]

I don't think any of us expected to be here.

Stonewalling the media and telling them "I owe you no explanation" when you're on top of the world and winning all the time is great. I sure have enjoyed it.

Stonewalling your own fanbase by telling them "I owe you no explanation" when you made no offer to the greatest player of all-time, who signed somewhere else and won a championship, not so much.

The Patriots should expect that the fans and public would want more transparency here; it's human nature that you can't really move on from something when it remains controversial and unexplained. I'm not saying we need a chronicled account of what happened or that anyone needs to scream "I messed up and I'm sorry!", but I feel like this should not be treated with the same "we did what was best for the team - so f*ck off" response that works other times.

I think some of the increased criticism of Bill is more of an angry pushback to that "you're owed nothing, and this is what was best for the team!" attitude. At that point, it becomes a kneejerk reaction to find the most blatant examples of times when Bill's decisions were not always right for the team, despite him thinking they were. I know that almost all of my negative Bill posts have been an ongoing, frustrating attempt to establish that Bill is not infallible; and I almost feel dirty doing it, because I admire him so much and have learned so much from him. I don't want to crap on him but feel like I need to lay it on thicker and thicker when some members will not just acknowledge the obvious. In the end, I just feel worse.

But as long as that stonewalling exists, this criticism and demand for accountability will only grow. It isn't the Brady departure that's polarizing people so much; it's the idea that Belichick doesn't have to explain himself or account for the decision in any way as long as it made sense to him, and that he gets an exemption from second guessing, with that same general attitude carrying over to the fans. That may have worked for everything else, but it doesn't work for the Brady decision.

I really don't see how Bill could explain it, without throwing Tom under the bus.

Tom was the greatest QB I've ever coached. Dare I say, in the history of this league, he is the greatest QB to play the game, certainly the most accomplished. He exemplified winning. Tom knew what it took to play at a championship level and did that for the better part of 20 years.

But...

Tom stopped going to OTAs and building rapport with younger players. He would continually focus on the negative of certain players play and freeze receivers out. He locked in to "his guys", when he had other opportunities on the field. He got too big for himself and he became unable to check his ego at the door enough for me to coach him in the blistering, tough and sometimes uncomfortable manner than has made me successful. He b*tched and moaned about his contract, and quite simply, I cannot give a multi year deal to a guy on the north side of 40, no matter how great he is. I'm simply playing the odds there. Tom didn't like my coaching style, had grown as a person, player and man, and needed a change of scenery. Is anyone surprised that he won the Super Bowl? He got a fresh start, with shiny new toys and he rolled himself back 5-10 years. Good for him. We knew he could do it, but he needed a change. We wish him well.

On to 2021...

Bill is not capable of saying that, It's not in his makeup.

 

[venecol]

Is it possible that our expectations for BB are too high? Greatness is what we expect from him in every facet of his job, he seems to have hit a patch of average/below average drafting and his QB succession plan didn't work out as well as most of us can see now with the benefit of hindsight. Greatness is a high standard and tough to maintain and for the compensation he is receiving I'm sure he expects more from himself (especially on the GM side). But we get BB as the coach too, and that guy is still kicking butt. Let's take these criticism's to their natural conclusion, BB gets fired because of them. I am not in way advocating for BB to get fired. But let's pretend that all the negative criticisms are true and Kraft felt the same way and fires BB. Is that the solution ? Who would replace him? Not just the greatest coach of all time during the salary cap era, but one of the best GM's in the salary cap era too. Who will follow in those footsteps? Will that person be free of mistakes? How many mistakes and growing pains will we have to "put up with"?
In regards to comparing him to a player: BB has 20 years of running this franchise at a level none has ever seen, I am not wanting to throw that away as if he has lost it completely because of a couple marginal drafts or because of a "less than perfect" transition from the GOAT QB. If a player is deemed unworthy of his asking price/current salary, he won't get offered a contract or gets cut, because the staff/BB decides their is value out on the market to cover for his loss. Can we honestly say that their is value out on the market right now that would replace BB? I'm not smart enough to know the answer to that question, but if I had to guess I would say "Not even close".
I hope this thread stays open because, I love reading all the criticisms of BB, Brady when he was here, Josh, or any other player or coach of my favorite football team. Because of my rose-colored glasses attitude, I typically learn a lot about the team through it, but usually it lasts a thread or two and then gets "talked out" and we move on. This seems different and it seems like some people can't get over the idea of rooting for The Pats without Brady or worse, with BB as the GM/coach.

Good post.

I'm not one that believes that either Brady or BB were the main ones responsible for the success of the greatest franchise in NFL history the last 20 years. To me it's pretty clear that the reason was the fact they stayed together as long as they did (truly incredible in and of itself) which gave the team the continuity/stability to allow them to accomplish everything they did. No other franchise comes even close to having this luxury.

On the other hand, I admit to not liking Bill's management style very much. He's the GOAT Coach but his "way" reminds me too much of old school authoritarian bosses (doesn't mean we need a lovey dovey one either) that make working for them miserable. I'm still ticked over Bill letting Amendola, one of the most clutch players in post season history, walk over a few bucks. Imagine if Brady had DA in 2018-2019, there's no doubt in my mind TFB throws for a TD in SB LIII and possibly makes it to the dance in 2019. Who knows.

There's no doubt you can't compare a HC to a player but there shouldn't be different "team standards" of evaluation either. Gruden got traded for two #1s and two #2s and took the Bucs to their first SB win. Belichick was traded from the Jets for a #1, #4 and #5 and the rest is history. I'm not proposing to fire/trade Belichick, I'm extremely curious to see what he can do, and he's certainly entitled to the benefit of doubt (even though he wouldn't give others the same consideration). I'm not hopeful because I believe the team has way too many holes and overall lacks a lot of talent, but would be pleasantly surprised if they can go say, 10-6 this season. He's certainly not above criticism, but can see how it can be overdone. In the meantime, I'll try to keep it light and have a couple of laughs over all the crazy takes.

 

[venecol]

Yeah. It got the proverbial axe. Just YouTube Louis C.K. “Suicide.”

That's a shame. I'm not the sensitive type and probably would've laughed.

 

[Biffins]

Regarding moderation - I already talked about this last night. I don't have an issue with criticizing the coach, I'm no stranger to that recently either. However, moving forward, it will require more effort and insight. Those who just chime in with "he sucks" without offering anything constructive or beating the same dead horse might simply find themselves removed from the thread for the sake of trying to keep it a productive discussion, rather than just another b***h session. And I'll be instructing the mods to let me handle it, so if I kick you out, I'll tell you why.

As I mentioned last night, the other part of me - and most of us older fans - have plenty of experience of this team being terrible long before this run. Obviously, this offseason is going to be key to everyone's opinion of him moving forward and one can only hope that many of the issues being discussed are addressed with a reasonable solution. After all, it's February, let's see how things look at the end of April before we start making drastic assumptions.

Again, I've certainly expressed my irritation over the QB situation but it is what it is, I'm not going to bring it up in every thread and I think that's sort of where the mods and I am with this topic. Dont' mention the same argument, try and be constructive and discuss what you would do differently or what you think they should do. We already know what has been done, the point of a forum like this is to have discussions talking about possibilities and solutions or just the overall situation with different scenarios. Otherwise, we'll spend the next six months with dozens of Belichick threads beating that topic into the ground and that isn't fun for anyone

Ian, I mostly posted articles from national media that talked about or critisized Belichick. Please go check. Recent or new articles.

And we were engaged in an active discussion. And there's interest in his predicament to be more aggressive now in response to recent events.

I am sorry but it clearly appears that there is sensitivity to criticizing BB here. Something for which there is no need. As long as the discussion is civil, and noone is using abusive language, what difference does it make what Patriots topic is being discussed, even if the argument is repeated. It's clearly a relevant topic to the Patriots. And engaged users is good!

 

[Biffins]

It'll stay open. And I'm OK with discussing mistakes and criticisms as long as it's constructive and we can be objective and actually hash things out in a reasonable manner. Again, the goal will be to just avoid having 20 threads of similar topics that always turn out the same way and includes the same arguments. That's really what I'm trying to avoid because it will drown out a lot of the other threads that I'm sure will come up as we get closer to free agency as we talk about some of the new players.

I literally called the thread "mega-thread" so everything stayed in one thread.

 

[Ian]

Ian, I mostly posted articles from national media that talked about or critisized Belichick. Please go check. Recent or new articles.

And we were engaged in an active discussion. And there's interest in his predicament to be more aggressive now in response to recent events.

I am sorry but it clearly appears that there is sensitivity to criticizing BB here. Something for which there is no need. As long as the discussion is civil, and noone is using abusive language, what difference does it make what Patriots topic is being discussed, even if the argument is repeated. It's clearly a relevant topic to the Patriots. And engaged users is good!

I won't repeat the post that you quoted, as that more or less sums up my thoughts on the matter. As long as we can have productive discussions that aren't simply "Bill sucks", etc. or another similar topic or subject that's been discussed ad nauseam, I think we'll be fine.

 

[Ian]

I literally called the thread "mega-thread" so everything stayed in one thread.

And yes, I'm aware. Find my post in that thread and you'll see I already acknowledged it.