Bad news from Peter King

[loosebearing]

"Bodden wore out his welcome pretty early in Detroit after pouting about not receiving the starting spot at his position. Although it’s insane that he wasn’t given the starting job and then moved to the left side of the field where he was less comfortable, Bodden’s me-first, douchebaggey confident attitude most likely did not win him any friends in the Lions organization, which was a major factor in the Lions’ decision to cut him loose. That and the fact that Bodden was due a $8.6 million roster bonus."

Above is quote from article referenced by post #58

By my humble ability to read English he was "cut" for attitude and pending roster bonus. Not for ability on the field.

I actually think that a player being misused by the coaching staff of an 0-16 team then developing an "attitude" problem with that staff probably understood more than the staff.
I don't think he will have that same "insight" here with the Patriot coaching staff

 

[VJCPatriot]

3.) When did I say that I thought Springs, Bodden and Butler are anything like Bryant and Starks as opposed to merely pointing out possibilities and evaluating the comparative success of Bryant and Bodden? Hell, I like the Springs signing, a lot.

Then what's the problem?

4.) Who gives a rat's ass whether or not I've watched film on any of these players, since it has ZERO to do with my point?

It means that you're making your judgment based on nothing but emotional attachment to Hobbs which gives less credence to your anxiety of losing Hobbs. What weight does your opinion have when you don't even have a clue if those players are already better than Hobbs?

Here are some arguments that BB could make that would at least make sense:

a.) Hobbs was being an ass behind close doors and was a detriment to the team as a result

b.) Hobbs had already made it clear that he would not re-sign with the team and was threatening a hold out if he weren't traded

c.) The money saved is essential to signing Jason Taylor/Richard Seymour/Vince Wilfork and that signing must occur prior to any cuts being made for some valid reason

d.) Despite all his wheeling and dealing skills that were on full display during draft time, there was absolutely no other way to get this kid and he was a must have player (Of course, if he were really a must have player, he could have been gotten earlier, but this would at least be a sensible argument).

E) Hobbs isn't as good as the cornerbacks that BB had accumulated. Therefore dumping him for a couple of 5th round picks when he isn't going to be resigned anyways is good value.

 

[Wildo7]

Then what's the problem?



It means that you're making your judgment based on nothing but emotional attachment to Hobbs which gives less credence to your anxiety of losing Hobbs. What weight does your opinion have when you don't even have a clue if those players are already better than Hobbs?

I always thought Hobbs was terribly underrated, specifically because a lot of times he was left on an island and asked to do the impossible while playing through what now sounds like a lot of injuries.

In fairness to DI, he hasn't listed any of these reasons as factors in him being apprehensive about the move, he's only said that whether average, below average or whatever, we know that Hobbs was a starting quality CB and we don't know that about any of the others so the risk is unecessarily increased by this move. Personally I also don't see that the risk of losing that added level of stability in the now young and unknown Pats backfield is outweighed by the small benefit of two 5s and an extra roster spot.

E) Hobbs isn't as good as the cornerbacks that BB had accumulated. Therefore dumping him for a couple of 5th round picks when he isn't going to be resigned anyways is good value

How do you know this? How do you know that for the 2009 Pats Hobbs wouldn't have been the best. I believe that there are CBs now on the roster with perhaps greater upside but that still doesn't mean that the upside is going to be realized beyond what Hobbs would have provided in this upcoming season.

 

[Sicilian]

1.) When did I say he had hamstrung himself?

You didn't, but it is part of my argument that assuming Belichick is happy with his CBs, should he turn down a deal he thinks adds flexibility and value to his club because he has made mistakes in the past. My opinion is that is foolish, but we agree to disagree on that.

2.) If my argument is simply that he could have found a way to get his player that didn't involve giving up Ellis Hobbs.

If that's all you're arguing, then that's fine and I understand that. Perhaps our argument got a little off the rails.

3.) When did I say that I thought Springs, Bodden and Butler are anything like Bryant and Starks as opposed to merely pointing out possibilities and evaluating the comparative success of Bryant and Bodden? Hell, I like the Springs signing, a lot.

You brought up a point about drafting five failed knuckleballers in a row deterring someone from drafting a sixth. That makes sense, except for all we know BB views the recent additions as a departure from his usually CB selection strategy. If you think he's doing more of the same, you are saying that the recent additions can be compared to past failures. I would argue that BB might feel otherwise.

4.) Who gives a rat's ass whether or not I've watched film on any of these players, since it has ZERO to do with my point?.

Related to point above.

Here are some arguments that BB could make that would at least make sense:.

Absolutely, those would be incredible things to hear and would make a lot of sense. How many times has BB said that about a player once they've left the organization? One of those reasons just might be it, but we'll never know it until BB is retired and writes his memoirs.

Those reasons could be convincing. "I needed to trade a starter for 2 fifth round draft picks so that I could draft an O-lineman in the 5th round just 'cause" doesn't work for me. It works for you. We disagree..

I'll never assume I've heard the whole story. If that was all it is, I agree, not enough.

Given that the team now has about 500 tight ends trying out, the "how many can we keep?" argument makes no sense. Given the Starks/Bryant/Webster/etc. past, the "BB's seen the film" argument holds no water. The move may work out brilliantly. That doesn't mean it needed to go down the way it did, and it doesn't mean that I have to love it.

You don't have to love it, and somehow again I feel are argument escalated a bit. What started as, "I don't like the move," vs. "I don't think the move is that bad," quickly turned into, "this move is stupid" vs. "this is the best move ever".

I don't think either of us intended that. I guess we'll see what happens though. I blame a slow off-season

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think either of us intended that. I guess we'll see what happens though. I blame a slow off-season

It's killing a lot of people, on a lot of boards. It's gotten so testy here with some traditionally great posters that I've actually started looking at other teams' boards for a break, and there's a lot of the same stuff going on with some of them. I've never had the heart to look at a Lions board. Those poor bastards probably argue about who hates the owner more and things like that.

 

[Sicilian]

It's killing a lot of people, on a lot of boards. It's gotten so testy here with some traditionally great posters that I've actually started looking at other teams' boards for a break, and there's a lot of the same stuff going on with some of them. I've never had the heart to look at a Lions board. Those poor bastards probably argue about who hates the owner more and things like that.

Hear, hear. You mean they're not arguing over who they miss more? Bryant or Bodden?

 

[Deus Irae]

Hear, hear. You mean they're not arguing over who they miss more? Bryant or Bodden?

With a front office as bad as that one's been, I doubt they have time to even get to the players.

 

[carolinatony]

I don't read anything Peter King writes and think he's a idiot with a big Ego.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Undersize! Hobbs was 5'8" Wheatley and Butler are both 5' 10, 5' 11 guys. I would say the average cb in the league is probably 5'10".

Per NFL Draft Scout Combine/Pro Day records:

Hobbs = 5' 9" even.
Wheatley = 5' 9 5/8"
Wilhite = 5' 9 1/2"
Richardson = 5' 10 3/8"
Butler = 5' 10 3/8"
Love = 6' 1/8"

Bodden is not in the NFL Draft Scout database, he was listed as 6'1" on his college website...which means he's lucky to be 6'.

Springs has been in the league longer than NFL Draft Scout's records go back, he's listed as 6' by the Pats, who round off unpredictably (Kaczur was 6' 4 1/2" at the Combine and Levoir 6' 6 1/2", yet Kac is listed as 6' 4" and LeVoir as 6' 7").

BB clearly looks for different variables than size. I'm sure he'd have been willing to make a move for Jenkins if he'd slipped past New Orleans, but his most recent draft picks are mostly noted for quickness and ball skills. BB has seven CBs, four with NFL starts on their resume, to battle for three primary slots. I expect he'll have Caserio & Team combing the castoffs for Practice Squad prospects to compete with Love.

Here's the 3-cones

Hobbs = 6.80
Wheatley = 6.74
Wilhite = 7.17 - he was coming off a hamstring injury.
Richardson = 6.27
Butler = 6.92
Love = 6.88

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

Gee , sorry people were so turned off by a joke of a post that a overated blowhard sports writer writes, I think 2 weeks ago people were writing the same thing about peter king.. Well I know there is more important things we can talk about like, do you think we could have gotten more for Cassel, something that has never been brought up before..

Whatever its all good, but King's trackrecord or lack there of , speaks for itself..

 

[efin98]

When did it become a crime for someone to express their thoughts? He says he thinks they will get him, he doesnt' say they will.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

When did it become a crime for someone to express their thoughts? He says he thinks they will get him, he doesnt' say they will.

My whole premise for this post was anything Peter king thinks, it never comes to fruition.. That was all, anyway, I had a crappy day personally so Im not offended, and the whole post was ment to be a joke..

 

[stcjones]

Well, you can make such a statement about any position. I can think of any where a few injuries dont put us in position to rely on rookie or 2nd year guys.
I think comparing what we have today to what we started last season with shows, IMO, that it is very unlikely we will digress.

Springs.....Hobbs (very, very different players. at the least even)
Bodden.....ONeal (without a question an upgrade)
Wheately....Wheately (upgrade if only due to 1 yr exp, and most likely better health)
Wilhite....Wilhite (upgrade for yr 2 vs yr 1)
Butler......Richardson (would have to be an upgrade, otherwise Richardson will stick)

I don't think that we are any more risky than we were last year.
I guess that negative is that if we have more injuries this year than we did last year we could be more heavily exposed to young players maybe not being able to cut it.

I feel a lot better about the corners today than last September. Only time will tell if they get decimated by injury, and if, if they still arent better than last year. We do know that last years corner play was not something to write home about.

"I feel a lot better about the corners today than last September"

couldn't agree more AJ........good post

 

[stcjones]

I think that the uninformed look at drafting Butler as the lynchpin in trading Hobbs, but in fact, it is the development of Wheatley and Wilhite.
I don't profess to understand BB in every scenario, but I'm very confident that he wouldn't make a trade based on a draft choice surpassing a previous starter on draft day, but would easily make the assumption that last years rookies have/will surpass the guy ahead of them this year. I think its well documented that BB won't rely on a player who has not proven anything at the NFL level, but will HEAVILY rely and take great risk on a guy he has first hand knowledge of.
Consistently all of the veterans cut, traded or allowed to walk are replaced by guys who BB has first hand knowledge of and are being elevated into a larger role.

AJ we are talking about Ellis Hobbs here....Not Ty Law or Champ Bailey in their prime......Hobbs is a decent CB in CERTAIN situations. Is he that MUCH better than Wheatley or Wilhite...time will tell, but I think they will be fine. Would Hobbs' playing time drop off anyways with the addition of Springs, Bodden, etc.....definitely. He was expendable.....dumped salary cash....and got a few picks....Brilliant move. My only reservation or concern is KO returns. Not sure who will be taking this role over...

 

[stcjones]

I think Belichick disagrees with that. If he agreed with you then he wouldn't have traded Hobbs. I have no doubt he thinks Springs and Bodden are starting quality. I think he considers Wheatley to be #3 quality but he has to stay healthy.

Originally Posted by Deus Irae
Right now, the team has ONE definite starting quality CB"

wow.......you can NOT be serious......... :LOL:

 

[Deus Irae]

Originally Posted by Deus Irae
Right now, the team has ONE definite starting quality CB"

wow.......you can NOT be serious......... :LOL:

Are we really going to start this again? As of right now, only Springs is a definite starting quality CB. Bodden has been a starter, but he was cut by the Lions in part because he failed them as a starter. Wilhite? No.... Wheatley? No.... Richardson? No.... Butler? No.....

It's not that none of them have the talent, it's that none of them is a known quantity, except the oft-injured Springs. This really shouldn't be that hard to grasp.

 

[Keegs]

Don't you guys ever tire of picking on sportswriters? They are only trying to do their job. If you don't like the guy, don't read him.

I respect Peter King. His sources may be off, but the guy can actually write.

Lay off these guys, willya? Sheesh! Boring!

sure thing Pete, we'll get right on that.

 

[BradyFTW!]

To be fair, King *is* notoriously bad at predicting what's going to happen, especially where the Pats are concerned. I don't think that this means that Taylor *won't* sign the Pats, but I wouldn't really put much stock in it either way.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Originally Posted by Deus Irae
Right now, the team has ONE definite starting quality CB"

wow.......you can NOT be serious......... :LOL:

We have four CBs who have started on the roster. Admittedly, that's a deceptive stat (since Wheatley suffered a season-ending injury during his first start), but it's not nearly as bad as some people want to pretend it is.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Per NFL Draft Scout Combine/Pro Day records:

Hobbs = 5' 9" even.
Wheatley = 5' 9 5/8"
Wilhite = 5' 9 1/2"
Richardson = 5' 10 3/8"
Butler = 5' 10 3/8"
Love = 6' 1/8"

Bodden is not in the NFL Draft Scout database, he was listed as 6'1" on his college website...which means he's lucky to be 6'.

Springs has been in the league longer than NFL Draft Scout's records go back, he's listed as 6' by the Pats, who round off unpredictably (Kaczur was 6' 4 1/2" at the Combine and Levoir 6' 6 1/2", yet Kac is listed as 6' 4" and LeVoir as 6' 7").

BB clearly looks for different variables than size. I'm sure he'd have been willing to make a move for Jenkins if he'd slipped past New Orleans, but his most recent draft picks are mostly noted for quickness and ball skills. BB has seven CBs, four with NFL starts on their resume, to battle for three primary slots. I expect he'll have Caserio & Team combing the castoffs for Practice Squad prospects to compete with Love.

Here's the 3-cones

Hobbs = 6.80
Wheatley = 6.74
Wilhite = 7.17 - he was coming off a hamstring injury.
Richardson = 6.27
Butler = 6.92
Love = 6.88

In an article that I read, it noted that Butler's outstanding vertical leap made him play 'taller' than he is. Sure enough, I looked it up, and he has a 43 inch vertical (best at the Combine). And 5'10 isn't short for a CB, especially since Polian's hissyfit made most CBs of the Springs variety obsolete anyways since they're not allowed to breathe on WRs anymore.

I look at Belichick's tendency to draft sub-6-foot CBs as a pattern, and probably a reaction to that same "reemphasis" on contact rules. Of course, signing Bodden and Springs might be a reaction to that reaction, or maybe an experiment of some kind... heh, who knows.