Are we a quarterback away from being good?

[RIpats88]

Interesting analysis. But people on this board told me only the QB matters. You don't need elite receivers.

Now the same posters will spout something about Juju being a bonafide #1.

 

[Real fan 02]

Do fans realistically feel we have a solid core of young drafted players like we had with edelman/gronk/hightower/mccourty who will anchor the future patriots?

I guess I just don't see how fans who watched those teams can look at us trotting out juju/parker and somehow try to sell to me that the talent level is comparable. Do we have any pro-bowl caliber players on offense?

Agreed! Douglas is the only potential Pro bowl caliber player at the skill position who has that potential. I keep saying to myself did Bill the GM just blatantly ignore the 3rd down back and slot WR. Those are the Cogs in the patriots offense. How many times did we see drives sustained and winning plays made over the years from those positions. It's maddening with this offense.

 

[Real fan 02]

No it’s not overblown.

Mahomes was pissed at his WRs not the official's.. he came into the league and made his name with guys like the Cheetah, Watkins, hunt. KC was unstoppable then. They dropped 17 in a quarter. Agreed 100%

 

[RIpats88]

Mahomes was pissed at his WRs not the official's.. he came into the league and made his name with guys like the Cheetah, Watkins, hunt. KC was unstoppable then. They dropped 17 in a quarter. Agreed 100%

Mahomes better get used to it. Kelce is 34 and probably won't be in the league too much longer. And his salary is about to go through the roof.

They need to draft an elite receiver. Although most teams can find one late in the 1st or 2nd. It's only the pats that cant

 

[Real fan 02]

Mahomes better get used to it. Kelce is 34 and probably won't be in the league too much longer. And his salary is about to go through the roof.

They need to draft an elite receiver. Although most teams can find one late in the 1st or 2nd. It's only the pats that cant

I can say this with confidence.. I can Guarantee you KC gets a WR.. We couldn't draft WR if they fell out the sky. I've been wanting tee Higgins for a while.. watching him play yesterday made it emphatically clear he needs to be here!

 

[Ring 6]

Hunter Henry went from 6.5 targets per game his last 2 years in SD to 3.95 here with 10
Jonnu Smith produced half here with 10 of what he did before and after.
Agholor was coming off 48/895/8 and a 4 year average of 58 catches per 16 games and here with 10 put up 68/835 in 31 games.
Parker averaged 58/813 per 16 games in Miami and 38/584 here, with 10.

It doesn’t matter who you put on the title with 10, he makes them worse.

 

[Rob0729]

No it’s not overblown.

I don't get it. How can people think this is a good roster made to look bad because of Mac Jones?

The Dolphins traded Parker to the Patriots because they didn't fear the guy. The Chiefs are desperate for WR, yet they didn't even try to retain Smith-Schuster. The Dolphins could have used a TE, but didn't try to retain Geisicki. Jalon Reagor was waived and no one put in a waiver claim for him nor did they sign him to an active roster after he cleared waivers. Thornton can't run a route to save his life. I don't think most of these guys could make a roster on a third to a half of the teams in the NFL.

This roster has looked mediocre to awful in six of the eight quarters with Zappe as the starter. Mac Jones ain't making them look bad from the sidelines.

 

[Rob0729]

Interesting analysis. But people on this board told me only the QB matters. You don't need elite receivers.

Now the same posters will spout something about Juju being a bonafide #1.

An elite QB can elevate the talent of WRs, but none could do it like Brady or Manning. Rodgers could do it almost as good in Green Bay. And there is only so much a QB can do when you have absolute garbage at WR.

 

[Rob0729]

Hunter Henry went from 6.5 targets per game his last 2 years in SD to 3.95 here with 10
Jonnu Smith produced half here with 10 of what he did before and after.
Agholor was coming off 48/895/8 and a 4 year average of 58 catches per 16 games and here with 10 put up 68/835 in 31 games.
Parker averaged 58/813 per 16 games in Miami and 38/584 here, with 10.

It doesn’t matter who you put on the title with 10, he makes them worse.

Hunter Henry had a career year for TDs in 2021 (9) and had a better yards per catch than the year before with Herbert throwing to him (12.1 YPC Mac's rookie season and 10.2 YPC his last season with the Chargers). Mac made Henry arguably better his rookie year.

Last year Devante Parker had his greatest YPC in his career with 17.1. He also tied his career high for percentage of catches for first downs.

Yes, I get that Mac has completely fallen apart, but people are rewriting history on the guy.

 

[upstater1]

Interesting analysis. But people on this board told me only the QB matters. You don't need elite receivers.

Now the same posters will spout something about Juju being a bonafide #1.

???

They won the Super Bowl last year.

The only difference is they lost JuJu.

These are just basic facts.

They added Rashee Rice, but the fact remains, they won the Super Bowl last year. That kind of success is hard to disagree with.

 

[upstater1]

Hunter Henry had a career year for TDs in 2021 (9) and had a better yards per catch than the year before with Herbert throwing to him (12.1 YPC Mac's rookie season and 10.2 YPC his last season with the Chargers). Mac made Henry arguably better his rookie year.

Last year Devante Parker had his greatest YPC in his career with 17.1. He also tied his career high for percentage of catches for first downs.

Yes, I get that Mac has completely fallen apart, but people are rewriting history on the guy.

I'll say this again: it's much easier for rookies and backups to do well--Before they get scouted.

Act2 is always their downfall. We've seen this 100 times.

Parker's YPC is meaningless because there's no volume. YPC without volume is meaningless. Otherwise, Bethel Johnson would be the greatest WR in Patriot history.

Jonnu Smith got hurt in the middle of this season, but prior to his injury, he put up 2x as many yards in 8 games as he had in 2 seasons playing with Mac.

 

[Ring 6]

Hunter Henry had a career year for TDs in 2021 (9) and had a better yards per catch than the year before with Herbert throwing to him (12.1 YPC Mac's rookie season and 10.2 YPC his last season with the Chargers). Mac made Henry arguably better his rookie year.

Last year Devante Parker had his greatest YPC in his career with 17.1. He also tied his career high for percentage of catches for first downs.

Yes, I get that Mac has completely fallen apart, but people are rewriting history on the guy.

Henry had 6.5 targets per game his last 2 charger seasons and 3.95 with 10.
10s enormous flaw is he won’t/can’t find open receivers. He has made Henry 60% of what he was.

Parker averaged 19 yoc his rookie year, so you are wrong. He also averaged 16.7 on 72 catches in 2019 which is a hell of a lot better than 17.1 on 31. How many ints did 10 throw on Parker targets? Yet still with 10 at qb he is 60% of what he was in Miami.

No one is rewriting history. He was the same QB in 2021, it just took the league a while to figure it out. He stunk at the end of the season, just as he has stunk this year.

 

[Rob0729]

I'll say this again: it's much easier for rookies and backups to do well--Before they get scouted.

Act2 is always their downfall. We've seen this 100 times.

Parker's YPC is meaningless because there's no volume. YPC without volume is meaningless. Otherwise, Bethel Johnson would be the greatest WR in Patriot history.

Jonnu Smith got hurt in the middle of this season, but prior to his injury, he put up 2x as many yards in 8 games as he had in 2 seasons playing with Mac.

Smith couldn't grasp this offense. Stop blaming that on Mac. He literally took out both our starting TEs (one of them being him) because he kept running into other Patriots receivers. And he was here when Mac was a rookie and before everyone had a book on Mac and other receivers like Henry thrived and Smith was awful.

And Mac's biggest problem isn't his talent. It is he has become a head case because he lost his confidence. He made costly mistakes early in the season, but prior to the Cowboys game, he played pretty at times too. And he played great against the Bills. He just is like Tony Eason in that he is seeing ghosts and making bad decisions because of it. Mac may have never become a good QB anywhere, but he became a trainwreck here because he is not mentally tough and Belichick did everything to ruin him. A mentally stronger QB might have overcome it. But when you are weak mentally, you crumble.

 

[Ring 6]

I'll say this again: it's much easier for rookies and backups to do well--Before they get scouted.

Act2 is always their downfall. We've seen this 100 times.

Parker's YPC is meaningless because there's no volume. YPC without volume is meaningless. Otherwise, Bethel Johnson would be the greatest WR in Patriot history.

Jonnu Smith got hurt in the middle of this season, but prior to his injury, he put up 2x as many yards in 8 games as he had in 2 seasons playing with Mac.

Virtually every player you give 10 to throw to does worse with him than before or after.

 

[Rob0729]

Henry had 6.5 targets per game his last 2 charger seasons and 3.95 with 10.
10s enormous flaw is he won’t/can’t find open receivers. He has made Henry 60% of what he was.

Parker averaged 19 yoc his rookie year, so you are wrong. He also averaged 16.7 on 72 catches in 2019 which is a hell of a lot better than 17.1 on 31. How many ints did 10 throw on Parker targets? Yet still with 10 at qb he is 60% of what he was in Miami.

No one is rewriting history. He was the same QB in 2021, it just took the league a while to figure it out. He stunk at the end of the season, just as he has stunk this year.

No way is he the same QB in 2021 as he was this year. Not even close. He could manipulate the pocket in 2021. He made smart decisions in 2021. He made throws on the money in 2021. If he was the same QB he was in 2021, he would be starting today and the Pats would be better than 3-10. Still not a playoff team, but better.

 

[Rob0729]

Virtually every player you give 10 to throw to does worse with him than before or after.

I don't know. Other than 2 catches last week, JuJu has been just as awful with Zappe as he has been with Mac. And he had one catch for 11 yards against the Chargers. Henry had two catches for 15 yards against the Chargers.

We are taking one half of one game against a team that is imploding to make definitive statements.

Let's stop blaming Mac for the fact this offense is awful with or without him.

 

[Ring 6]

Smith couldn't grasp this offense. Stop blaming that on Mac. He literally took out both our starting TEs (one of them being him) because he kept running into other Patriots receivers. And he was here when Mac was a rookie and before everyone had a book on Mac and other receivers like Henry thrived and Smith was awful.

And Mac's biggest problem isn't his talent. It is he has become a head case because he lost his confidence. He made costly mistakes early in the season, but prior to the Cowboys game, he played pretty at times too. And he played great against the Bills. He just is like Tony Eason in that he is seeing ghosts and making bad decisions because of it. Mac may have never become a good QB anywhere, but he became a trainwreck here because he is not mentally tough and Belichick did everything to ruin him. A mentally stronger QB might have overcome it. But when you are weak mentally, you crumble.

So Smith being twice as productive before and after then he was here is just a mystery? Henry did not thrive compared to what he did in SD. He had seen 60% of the targets.

10s problem is very easy to diagnose on film. He does not execute the play as designed. Somewhere from presnap read to post snap read he abandons the primary receiver prior to the throwing window. He moves on to secondary targets before the primary comes open and isn’t throwing on time to any of the routes. He did this his rookie year but defenses were respecting the whole field. Now they sit on his check downs. It looks as if he forgets the play call or doesn’t understand jt, which can’t be true so I can only conclude he is afraid of the pass rush, which is confirmed by him tripping over pass rushers laying in the ground, or refusing to step into throws when anyone is even close but still not a danger.

 

[Ring 6]

No way is he the same QB in 2021 as he was this year. Not even close. He could manipulate the pocket in 2021. He made smart decisions in 2021. He made throws on the money in 2021. If he was the same QB he was in 2021, he would be starting today and the Pats would be better than 3-10. Still not a playoff team, but better.

Same guy, figured out.
The film study on him in 2021 was he gave up on his primary routes and hesitated to pull the trigger missing proper windows.
What has changed us defenses know this about him so the check downs are more heavily covered
And he has become scared of the pass rush resulting in horrific ints
The ints are infuriating but without them he’s still be a qb who can’t run an offense and score points.

 

[Rob0729]

So Smith being twice as productive before and after then he was here is just a mystery? Henry did not thrive compared to what he did in SD. He had seen 60% of the targets.

10s problem is very easy to diagnose on film. He does not execute the play as designed. Somewhere from presnap read to post snap read he abandons the primary receiver prior to the throwing window. He moves on to secondary targets before the primary comes open and isn’t throwing on time to any of the routes. He did this his rookie year but defenses were respecting the whole field. Now they sit on his check downs. It looks as if he forgets the play call or doesn’t understand jt, which can’t be true so I can only conclude he is afraid of the pass rush, which is confirmed by him tripping over pass rushers laying in the ground, or refusing to step into throws when anyone is even close but still not a danger.

Again, even when Mac was good Smith was awful. Some players are scheme fits and that was Smith. You admitted that Mac played well until teams figured him out. Players like Henry and Bourne also played well during that time. Smith always sucked here. That is on Smith. Not Mac.

And I think you are projecting Mac's problems this year onto his previous years.

 

[Rob0729]

Same guy, figured out.
The film study on him in 2021 was he gave up on his primary routes and hesitated to pull the trigger missing proper windows.
What has changed us defenses know this about him so the check downs are more heavily covered
And he has become scared of the pass rush resulting in horrific ints
The ints are infuriating but without them he’s still be a qb who can’t run an offense and score points.

He isn't the same guy. It is funny I got into argument last year with someone else who claimed Mac locked into his first read so much that he never checked down and that is what teams saw. That was a problem last year, but that was Patricia's offense.

Everyone seems to have a different reason why Mac sucked and there is no universal reason for it.

Mac in the right offense might be a good QB. In the Patriots' offense with mediocre talent, he was never going to be good. He isn't the type of QB to elevate talent. But I seriously doubt he made receivers run the wrong routes and not get separation which everyone who watches the ALL 22 film says about these receivers.

Mac is completely broken and I would never want him as the starter of the Patriots ever again, but he is not the same QB he was his rookie season. He should have been nurtured and might have grown from there.