A little early, but: should the Patriots try to re-sign Wes Welker?

[Ring 6]

Sample size is very limited, but Talib was very good vs. Andre Johnson prior to the injury. In general I think your evaluation is too negative.

Well that is because I am being honest and assessing his play, not rationalizing it because I have high hopes.
I have no doubt he has the potential to play significantly better than has, but he has not played well. First the excuse was he was rusty, then he only allowed a couple big plays but otherwise was ok, then he was injured.
I can accept a confident belief that he is more talented than his level of play here, but so far, he has been injured and mediocre, and thats just a true objective analysis of what has happened on the field.

 

[patfanken]

Because he is a 2nd tier corner with a lot baggage, who has missed half of this season with injuries and suspensions and played like a mediocre corner the other half of it.

I get that people wish Talib would come here and play like an allpro corner and that he may possibly have the skillset to do that, but no one honestly watching his play as a Patriot can say it has been good. I'm not giving up on him, but he has struggled here, and if he wasn't considered a savior would be being talked about like Arrington right now.

On this we agree. Talib has the size and physical talent that is so important in a league where WR's over 6'2 are becoming the norm, not the exception. The fact that he has shown elite ability for stretches in the past makes him even more tantalizing.

But you are correct. He's been wildly over rated by a lot of fans, and has been given too much credit for the recent success of the defense. Up to now his biggest impact to the defense hasn't been his play, but that he's allowed McCourty to move to S and Arrington to the inside, both moves that helped that secondary more than Talib's erratic play.

I'm hoping that he's healthy now and for the next 3 games can operate consistently and dependably within the defensive plans the Pats invoke. Because no one wants to see him succeed more than me, but up to now, his acquisition, while not a failure, can't be called a success either. But his play in the playoffs certainly can make it a success very quickly.

 

[patfanken]

Of course they would, but with 174 targets I think it shows his value in being where he's supposed to be, and also bailing Brady out of jams.

174 targets shows that he is truly Brady's right hand man, and that the offense would indeed go through a period of transformation without him.

The 72 first downs speak volumes to me too.

They may be able to end up doing okay after some growth period, but it isn't something I want to see happen, especially when all accounts point to Welker not trying to break the bank, but simply get paid something "fair."

There's not question he's been Brady's "go to" guy this year. Those 174 targets prove that. But tell me Sup, if Gronk, Hernandez and Edelman had been healthy all year, don't you think that that number would have been lower.

With all the injuries among the TE's and WR's Welker has HAD to be Brady's go to guy this season. We all thought that Brady would go into this season with 4 elite targets to choose from. The reality has been he's been lucky to have 2 and a half for most of the season.

Its a credit to Brady, Welker and Lloyd that the Pats have been able to be so effective despite all the dings to the TE's and OL.

BTW- despite the fact that the Pats ran the ball 85 more times this year than last, Brady still had 30 more pass attempts. I found that stat both interesting and impressive. That's 115 more plays than the 2nd rated total offensive team (by just 30 yds) last season

 

[Deus Irae]

Sample size is very limited, but Talib was very good vs. Andre Johnson prior to the injury. In general I think your evaluation is too negative.

Talib's already proven his worth for this year. The playoffs will give him a chance to show his worth moving forward.

 

[ATippett56]

There's not question he's been Brady's "go to" guy this year. Those 174 targets prove that. But tell me Sup, if Gronk, Hernandez and Edelman had been healthy all year, don't you think that that number would have been lower.

Negative!

2011 NFL Player Receiving Stats - National Football League - ESPN

2011 NFL Pass Receptions Leaders

Wes Welker - 172 targets

 

[ATippett56]

There's not question he's been Brady's "go to" guy this year. Those 174 targets prove that. But tell me Sup, if Gronk, Hernandez and Edelman had been healthy all year, don't you think that that number would have been lower.

You have yet to provide a viable alternative to wide receiver Wes Welker for the 2013 NFL Season.

 

[ausbacker]

On this we agree. Talib has the size and physical talent that is so important in a league where WR's over 6'2 are becoming the norm, not the exception. The fact that he has shown elite ability for stretches in the past makes him even more tantalizing.

But you are correct. He's been wildly over rated by a lot of fans, and has been given too much credit for the recent success of the defense. Up to now his biggest impact to the defense hasn't been his play, but that he's allowed McCourty to move to S and Arrington to the inside, both moves that helped that secondary more than Talib's erratic play.

I'm hoping that he's healthy now and for the next 3 games can operate consistently and dependably within the defensive plans the Pats invoke. Because no one wants to see him succeed more than me, but up to now, his acquisition, while not a failure, can't be called a success either. But his play in the playoffs certainly can make it a success very quickly.

I'm not sure you have realised that the underlined comment makes the bolded comment redundant. That's exactly why Talib has improved the D (to go along with a combo of other factors).

 

[Mack Herron]

I'm not sure you have realised that the underlined comment makes the bolded comment redundant. That's exactly why Talib has improved the D (to go along with a combo of other factors).

Small sample size and not Revis, and, yes, he improves 3 secondary positions, but Talib is (by far) our best CB and has played like it.

 

[Ring 6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyJohnson

Because he is a 2nd tier corner with a lot baggage, who has missed half of this season with injuries and suspensions and played like a mediocre corner the other half of it.

I get that people wish Talib would come here and play like an allpro corner and that he may possibly have the skillset to do that, but no one honestly watching his play as a Patriot can say it has been good. I'm not giving up on him, but he has struggled here, and if he wasn't considered a savior would be being talked about like Arrington right now.

On this we agree. Talib has the size and physical talent that is so important in a league where WR's over 6'2 are becoming the norm, not the exception. The fact that he has shown elite ability for stretches in the past makes him even more tantalizing.

But you are correct. He's been wildly over rated by a lot of fans, and has been given too much credit for the recent success of the defense. Up to now his biggest impact to the defense hasn't been his play, but that he's allowed McCourty to move to S and Arrington to the inside, both moves that helped that secondary more than Talib's erratic play.

I'm hoping that he's healthy now and for the next 3 games can operate consistently and dependably within the defensive plans the Pats invoke. Because no one wants to see him succeed more than me, but up to now, his acquisition, while not a failure, can't be called a success either. But his play in the playoffs certainly can make it a success very quickly.

I think his acquisition has been a success because even playing barely half the time and playing at a mediocre level was an improvement over Arrington our whoever would be playing safety if McCourty couldn't.
If he is healthy we have a post season to evaluate him and look forward. His upside is a lot more than what he has done here so hopefully we start seeing that.


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[patfanken]

I'm not sure you have realised that the underlined comment makes the bolded comment redundant. That's exactly why Talib has improved the D (to go along with a combo of other factors).

I understand what you're saying, and in that context you could deem his acquisition a success if. only because it allowed the position changes to Arrington and McCourty.

But in the context of whether we should resign him, it becomes more about his individual play. Is that individual play good enough to warrant the money the Pats would need to invest in him long term. Up to know, I think its safe to say, that's still up in the air. Hopefully that will clear itself up over the next 3 games (we hope).

And there are other questions the Pats have to have answered over the next month, concerning his off field situations, and if they comfortable that after he gets this big paycheck, is he the kind of guy who elevates his game along with his salary, or is he the kind of guy, loses that edge along with the money, and never plays up to the big money from his post-rookie contract.

I'm thrilled to have him now. We desperately needed more size in our secondary. We need more CB help if we are to keep McCourty at S. and Arrington inside. Whether that CB ends up being Talib, some other FA, or a draft pick, remains to be seen

 

[patfanken]

I think his acquisition has been a success because even playing barely half the time and playing at a mediocre level was an improvement over Arrington our whoever would be playing safety if McCourty couldn't.
If he is healthy we have a post season to evaluate him and look forward. His upside is a lot more than what he has done here so hopefully we start seeing that.


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Andy, did you read the post of the Texan fan who did a break down of the game. A lot of his post has to be taken with the grain of salt and an acknowledgement of his built in bias, but he made one comment that rang true concerning Talib.

When he describes the marked difference in Talib's effectiveness playing zone or off the LOS, compared to the relative success he has playing press man. I've notice that too When Talib is not in press coverage he sometimes looks lost. Granted he probably didn't play much zone in TB and College. So it might be just a lack of experience. And while we are playing more man coverage than in the past, I don't think BB is going to abandon 3 decades of his basic defensive philosophy to accommodate one CB.

So one of the questions the Pats are going to have to answer is can be developed to the point where he can effectively play some zone to go along with acknowledged ability to play man.

 

[ausbacker]

I understand what you're saying, and in that context you could deem his acquisition a success if. only because it allowed the position changes to Arrington and McCourty.

But in the context of whether we should resign him, it becomes more about his individual play. Is that individual play good enough to warrant the money the Pats would need to invest in him long term. Up to know, I think its safe to say, that's still up in the air. Hopefully that will clear itself up over the next 3 games (we hope).

And there are other questions the Pats have to have answered over the next month, concerning his off field situations, and if they comfortable that after he gets this big paycheck, is he the kind of guy who elevates his game along with his salary, or is he the kind of guy, loses that edge along with the money, and never plays up to the big money from his post-rookie contract.

I'm thrilled to have him now. We desperately needed more size in our secondary. We need more CB help if we are to keep McCourty at S. and Arrington inside. Whether that CB ends up being Talib, some other FA, or a draft pick, remains to be seen

If his individual play isn't as good as you seem to believe then the contract he will be offered will match that level of play. If someone wants to overpay for Talib given potentially suspect performance then so be it. I don't happen to agree with you, but I'm not seeing it as a HoF or bust acquisition.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

He is for a 36 year old. Is stokley earning 9m? No. But he is durable and relatively reliable. Of course welker is much better than that. And who is ready to ship out Lloyd.? Definitely not me. If you've read any of my previous posts, i'm a lloyd supporter. Don't put words in my mouth. Stokley is producing well for the money he is paid at his age and so is welker.

I'll apologize; the post was strong and definitely guilty of holding you accountable for what others have said.

Ivan one of the major WW drum beaters has called Lloyd a bust, labeled him as disappearing, and happily allocated Lloyd's $$$ to WW if need be. Then you also have the "Brandon Lloyd - I dunno..." thread. All of this is immaterial though since none of that is you.

I feel like what Stokley is doing this season doesn't really have a bearing on WW for the exact reasons you stated in the opening of this post. That was the point I was (poorly) trying to drive home, we're comparing the best ever to a good slot WR. No matter what trying to estimate WW's worth in the future is a shot in the dark; you have to look at the longevity of other all time great WRs, heavily used slot guys, and great slot guys. This isn't an easy task and I assume that's the issue we're seeing.

Again sorry for jumping down your throat.

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

On the possible WW replacement front... Has anyone watched a lot of Bengals games? Thoughts on Andrew Hawkins? Looks like he doesn't have a contract for next season and he could be affordable if you beat the Bengals to the punch. If he could even get close to replacing 3/4ers of WW's and replace a lot of what WW does that other players currently on the roster can't I'd guess the offense would still be quite potent.

I'm in no way advocating letting WW go. I'm also not saying that Andrew Hawkins would be able to actually replace WW. I'm actually in the resign WW camp and hope there isn't a need to replace him. This is simply a look at what else is out there and available exercise.

 

[Dutchmaster617]

Curious but how and with whom do you plan on replacing Welker, should the Patriots decide to follow your course of action?

Just plug in Edelman, its not the end of the world IMO.

 

[JackBauer]

Just plug in Edelman, its not the end of the world IMO.

As has been noted ad nauseum, this notion is absurd.

 

[JackBauer]

Well that is because I am being honest and assessing his play, not rationalizing it because I have high hopes.

As long as you understand how condescending this is, we can simply agree to disagree.

 

[DocHoliday]

Just plug in Edelman, its not the end of the world IMO.

Edelman can probably play it, but he showed he has use on the outside

 

[Dutchmaster617]

As has been noted ad nauseum, this notion is absurd.

Do you guys think Edelman isn't very good or that Welker is irreplaceable? There are a lot of solid WRs in the league these days. I think its absurd to put Welker in a class above Moss, Seymour, Asante and all the other guys we 'couldn't just replace'.

Bringing up Stokley kind of hurts the Welker defense, he is cheaper and 'not as good' but yet still functions in a top offense due to the great QB. Is Brady suddenly inferior to Peyton who elevated average guys with his knowledge and skill?

 

[Ring 6]

As long as you understand how condescending this is, we can simply agree to disagree.

It wasn't meant to be condescending at all. The high hopes people have for Talib are great, and very well may be warranted, but the fact is that he has not played real well. My point is that my analysis of his play is based on the actual play on the field, ignoring the excuses that he was out of football shape, adjusting to the system or injured.
I think we can all agree that if we resign him we expect a better quantity and quality of play than he has given us since we acquired him, right?
Or are you saying that you would resign him to get exactly what we got out of him this year (over an entire season). I certainly wouldn't.