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#4 pick over last 10 years

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2025 NFL Draft Rankings: Offensive tackles
  • OT1. Will Campbell, LSU.
  • OT2. Josh Simmons, Ohio State.
  • OT3. Kelvin Banks Jr., Texas.
  • OT4. Armand Membou, Missouri.
  • OT5. Josh Conerly Jr., Oregon.
Jan 27, 2025
As for picking the best player at 4 is not what I'm looking for. What is the #1 POSITION this team needs to compete? Patriots Team needs matter and scoring points starts with protection of Drake. The other offshute is the running game will improve.
If the knee checks out, Josh Simmons is the guy I want at 4. Over pay? Maybe. I am willing to overpay for the guy I think is the best at that position. And given the relative lack of overall talent then the gap on the "over pay" isn't as large as some would suggest. BUT Its wait and see what the medicos say at the draft, if he goes through the process. If the knee check out, I am in go get him mode. He may not, so there's that to consider.
 
If the knee checks out, Josh Simmons is the guy I want at 4. Over pay? Maybe. I am willing to overpay for the guy I think is the best at that position. And given the relative lack of overall talent then the gap on the "over pay" isn't as large as some would suggest. BUT Its wait and see what the medicos say at the draft, if he goes through the process. If the knee check out, I am in go get him mode. He may not, so there's that to consider.
I agree, Josh Simmons. Yes his injury has been well documented. But do your due diligence and if that OK then yes take him at 4#
 
That's a great player analysis. Well done!

But, you misunderstand the assignment.

Do a trade analysis - what are teams paying in order to move up in the draft.

That is the Value of 4.
I've looked at that too, but it gets complicated and each draft is different.

The general conclusion for as far as I got on it is you should never trade down unless it involves future picks, preferably a first rounder. There are all kinds of caveats, like in the second round or later going down 2-3 picks generally is a 50-50 maneuver etc.

If Patriots can't get a future first, then don't trade down, based on history.

Patriots are better off trading up from 4 to get Carter or Hunter depending on who they have listed as the better prospect, a 1 and a 3 or any picks after a 4th this year would be fine.

But if they rate a prospect better than Carter and Hunter and can trade down and get them then getting a 2nd next year, in a deep draft would be OK.

7th round picks are almost useless so always trade a 7th for a future 6th.

Lots of other stuff came from my analysis but it got very complicated analyzing all the trades.

Trade value chart to go down to 10 from 4 only gets you an extra 2nd. To go back to 6 gets you a 3rd. But you get a much less quality prospect, not generally worth it.
 
I've looked at that too, but it gets complicated and each draft is different.

The general conclusion for as far as I got on it is you should never trade down unless it involves future picks, preferably a first rounder. There are all kinds of caveats, like in the second round or later going down 2-3 picks generally is a 50-50 maneuver etc.

If Patriots can't get a future first, then don't trade down, based on history.

Patriots are better off trading up from 4 to get Carter or Hunter depending on who they have listed as the better prospect, a 1 and a 3 or any picks after a 4th this year would be fine.

But if they rate a prospect better than Carter and Hunter and can trade down and get them then getting a 2nd next year, in a deep draft would be OK.

7th round picks are almost useless so always trade a 7th for a future 6th.

Lots of other stuff came from my analysis but it got very complicated analyzing all the trades.

Trade value chart to go down to 10 from 4 only gets you an extra 2nd. To go back to 6 gets you a 3rd. But you get a much less quality prospect, not generally worth it.
that's why 4 is closer to 10 than it is to 1.

and yes, its relative to a particular draft/talent available.

I don't think trading up for Carter is worth it. Really there is no one worth trading up for,
 
that's why 4 is closer to 10 than it is to 1.

and yes, its relative to a particular draft/talent available.

I don't think trading up for Carter is worth it. Really there is no one worth trading up for,
4 vs 2 were the question not 4 and 1. 1 is much more valuable than 2 normally.
If its not a QB you get 80% hit rate at 1. 60% at #2 and 50% at 4.
10 spot in a weak draft is closer to 33%, in a strong draft closer to 50%. This is a weak draft

Hunter is a generational talent IMO. Carter, some scouts have as a future DPOY candidate, at worst a very good edge rusher.

Outside those 2 the potential supertasters are less. Depends on the analysis the Pats scouts do, if the drop is big, then trading up is the best play. Historically, on average, it is also the better play.

But it's all playing the odds. It might not work out if they did it this year but if you did the same thing 10 years in a row you'll ed up better off.
 
If the knee checks out, Josh Simmons is the guy I want at 4. Over pay? Maybe. I am willing to overpay for the guy I think is the best at that position. And given the relative lack of overall talent then the gap on the "over pay" isn't as large as some would suggest. BUT Its wait and see what the medicos say at the draft, if he goes through the process. If the knee check out, I am in go get him mode. He may not, so there's that to consider.
Not a single player on this list made 2024 all pro team
 
4 vs 2 were the question not 4 and 1. 1 is much more valuable than 2 normally.
If its not a QB you get 80% hit rate at 1. 60% at #2 and 50% at 4.
10 spot in a weak draft is closer to 33%, in a strong draft closer to 50%. This is a weak draft

Hunter is a generational talent IMO. Carter, some scouts have as a future DPOY candidate, at worst a very good edge rusher.

Outside those 2 the potential supertasters are less. Depends on the analysis the Pats scouts do, if the drop is big, then trading up is the best play. Historically, on average, it is also the better play.

But it's all playing the odds. It might not work out if they did it this year but if you did the same thing 10 years in a row you'll ed up better off.
my post that set everyone off was "4 is closer to 10 than it is to 1".
 
Why would Dallas do that? Sounds like you live in the Madden fantasy world. It would take 2-3 first round picks to get Parsons.
I’m not sure, but it’s been confirmed they’ve had internal talk about trading him instead of paying him.

I have a life I don’t live in any fantasy land bud.
 
I’m not sure, but it’s been confirmed they’ve had internal talk about trading him instead of paying him.

I have a life I don’t live in any fantasy land bud.

I will give you a hint. Dallas is not trading Parsons for just #4. Thinking they would is pure fantasy. The dude is a minimum 3 first round picks.
 
History tells us that if you see a lineman on either side of the ball drafted in the top-five, it’s rare for teams to miss.

Joe Alt was 5th pick in draft. I have zero issues. I just watch Mahomes get Mac Jones like jitters in the pocket and running for his life. Na braa, Drake protection plan.
That only works when the OL taken is worth a top 5 pick. Campbell would have been maybe the 5th best OT in last year's draft. He is no Joe Alt
 
Patriot Career accomplishments, destroyed and forgotten.
I never really cared for him at LB. Very overrated by the media and fans when brought up - which isn’t much. He was a stat padder with hardly any impact plays that jump out at you.

Mayo knew his ass was getting canned and just wanted to screw them out of the #1 pick. It was too obvious with how aggressive they were while the Bills were going through the motions.
 
A few points:

If you exclude QB's, I agree with the point that people tend to over value the 4th pick or high picks in general.
These high picks use up too much of the salary cap relative to the probabiliy of success. I am convinced of this after reading

"The Losers Curse" by Thaler and Massey - https://faculty.wharton.upenn.edu/w...sers-curse---management-science-july-2013.pdf

and Ben Baldwin's work on Open Source Football -https://opensourcefootball.com/posts/2023-02-23-nfl-draft-value-chart/

The Jimmy Johnson trade value chart (1st = 3000, 2nd = 2600, 3rd = 2,200, 4th = 1,800...) to me seems to be obsolete. It was created over 30 years ago, 1993, but most likely earlier than that and was created before the salary cap (1994). I believe the quantative analysts have come up with much better ones. Some of the better know ones include Fitzgerad-Spielberger, Harvard Sports analysis chart, Rich Hill model, and Ben Baldwin's work referenced above. I would be surprised if any NFL front office is using the Jimmy Johnson chart anymore.

Thaler & Massey as well as Baldwin's work highlight a point I found counter intuitive but interesting. The high picks are worth less than later picks. More specifically, here is the table from Baldwin's work looking at surplus value per pick. Pick #12 is the most valuable pick. I take this with a grain of salt but believe in the general concept. I think this is why the Pats and other teams may have a difficult time trading down although the optimal strategy is to trade down in the first round for the Pats.

To those who suggest trading up is a better strategy or pick 1 is better than pick 2 or never trade down, I think both articles above do a good job of offering a different point of view. I think the main difference is that both articles factor in salaries. To not factor in salaries is like buying stocks at any price, for those old timers - like buying the "nifty fifty" in the early 70's which obviously didn't turn out well.

1=64 surplus value points
2=67
3=68
4=69
5=73
6=82
7=89
8=96
9=94
10=95
11=97
12=100 (author would argue this is the most value pick in the draft)
20=94
26=86
32=81
55=64
 
This was your post on page 1, 2 spot not 1 spot
same thing. they still over value the return.

and it was the comparison of the value of 1 vs 4 vs 10 on the trade value chart

the return is not what they expect. and its why you looked at players instead of draft pick compensation.
 
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I will give you a hint. Dallas is not trading Parsons for just #4. Thinking they would is pure fantasy. The dude is a minimum 3 first round picks.
Nobody is giving that up, even for Parsons.
 
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Mark Morse
2 weeks ago
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