Camp Battles: QB

[Metaphors]

What is worth more having the best back up possible or having the late day two draft pick. I mean if we are assuming that we have seen enough from Guit to think his ceiling is higher but that Cassel is better right now than if the unthinkable were to happen this year than Cassel would be the guy I want in there. And I think especially on this stacked team that having the Best Back up possible is more important than a day 2 pick.

Basically I am saying that the guy backing up Brady is more important than a late pick who may get cut himself.

I'm pretty sure that most people would agree that a 6th/7th round pick is not of much value...and would unlikely be considered in the decision making around the backup QB. That being said, I don't think either Cassel or Gutierrez would get much trade interest anyway.

If Cassel goes out and eats Gut's lunch in TC, then I think the Pats keep Cassel and possibly try to re-sign him for another year or two as a bridge to O'Connell. If the competition is close, it will either mean that Cassel isn't progressing or Gutierrez has stepped up his play. Either way, given the contract situation I believe that Gutierrez gets the nod and you may see some trade talks before Cassel is waived.

 

[fgssand]

Gutierrez was, I felt, a very distant 3rd on the depth chart last season. I don't know how he's to be expected to leapfrog Cassel when the team had enough confidence in Cassel last year that they cut Testaverde loose. While anything is possible, I would expect Cassel to be the team's #2 quarterback this season yet again.

I agree...unless...Gutierrez makes the quantum ability leap from year one to year two...something somewhere close to a certain low round draft choice we all know and love.

BB will do what is best for the team at all times, if Gutierrez can beat out Cassel he will be the #2.

 

[PatsFan37]

Basically I am saying that the guy backing up Brady is more important than a late pick who may get cut himself.

True, but that's only the icing on a decision to keep Gutierrez. If Gutierrez is progressing and Cassel isn't, even if Cassel is better right now, you might keep Gutierrez.

If Brady goes down before the playoffs for a game or two, chances are pretty good the Pats will still make the playoffs, whether it's Gutierrez or Cassel under center. If Brady goes down in the playoffs, I'm not so sure either of those rubes can beat the Jags, or the Colts, or the Chargers.

So I think they'll take progress into account as much as current ability.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, from the looks of things:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=85079

Andrews' spot may be available. Four quarterbacks, anyone?

 

[Metaphors]

Well, from the looks of things:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=85079

Andrews' spot may be available. Four quarterbacks, anyone?

Looks like Willie took my "Camp Battles" thread too literally. I'll send a disclaimer to the team in mini-camp next year.

 

[BradyManny]

IMO, the only reason Gutierrez has an advantage is that Cassel will be a UFA next March, while the Pats hold Gutierrez's rights through 2010.

And, as I've said before, I would not be surprised at all to learn that the Pats had already worked out a tentative trade with the Falcons ("Yeah, Tom, a conditional sixth for Cassel sounds good. . . .").

Co-sign...at least the Gutierrez part - the fact that Cassell is a UFA at the end of the season plays a role. I'm sure Cassell wants to seek the chance to compete for a starting job, right? Assuming this is the case, you're basically looking at a decision of 1 year of Cassell versus multiple years of Gutierrez...

 

[psychoPat]

Problem with the preseason games is that
backup QBs get to play only with backups and those vying to just make the roster.

Usually AGAINST the same.

BB is unlikely to give either Matt
much chance to shine with starters ... against starters.

 

[stcjones]

Locked Down Roster Spots
Starter: Brady
3rd/Developmental: O'Connell

Camp Battle
Cassel vs. Gutierrez vs. New Signing for Backup QB

Cassel is the incumbent and has the physical size/skills the Pats are looking for. Has shown glimpses of being an effective QB but more often has shown slow decision-making which has led to missed opportunities and negative plays.

Gutierrez also fits the Pats physical prototype for a QB. Not enough game action to really do much of an evaluation (to be fair, same for Cassel), but he seems to have a good feel for the pocket and the ability to get the ball out on time.

Don't see a veteran worth signing that would be available during training camp, so it seems like the Pats will stay in-house for the answer.

Metaphorically Speaking
Cassel has the "experience" but Gutierrez has the better timing (2 year bridge for O'Connell to get to #2). Hard to make an informed determination on whether Cassel has hit his ceiling or if Gutierrez's feel for the Pats passing game is real or just a fluke. This is a camp battle where every training camp and pre-season snap will be important.

Making the assumption that neither of them will outplay the other by such a degree that the roster decision is obvious, I'll give the spot to Gutierrez. The Pats offensive players will be effective enough to win most games as long as the QB doesn't take negative plays (sacks and interceptions). If Gutierrez can continue to show a steady hand, he should be able to captain the ship during a short-term Brady absence.

Roster to date:
1 - Brady
2 - Gutierrez
46 - O'Connell (gameday inactive)

RBs up next...

I think that Cassel has had his time here and has shown nothing that would instill confidence in him as the go to guy should something god forbid happen to Brady.......I do think that Gutz in the limited time that I have seen him in there....shows promise. He has that poise in the pocket....has some confidence.....makes the smart plays and doesn't seem to try to force things.......I know he hasn't been in there much....but in preseason play.....he did impress this fan......I would not be surprised to see Cassel traded or cut after camp......just don't think he fits this team....one man's opinion.......Oconnell is a work in progress that as you say, will take several years to get him up to speed as a possible backup.......It will be interesting to see if any vet FA's are brought in for tryouts this year....Gutz would be 3rd.....Oconnell will be going PS regardless I would imagine.......

 

[Metaphors]

Oconnell will be going PS regardless I would imagine.......

O'Connell would never last through waivers to make it to the PS. He will almost certainly be the 3rd QB unless the Pats decide to keep 4 of them (unlikely).

Edit: All these predictions obviously can't foresee any injuries that are going to happen. O'Connell could be put on the IR and save a roster spot...but given the current focus on the Pats operations, it would likely have to be a legit injury and would cost O'Connell a year of development.

 

[flyonthewall]

Gutierrez will be gone

 

[WhiZa]

It really depends on how confident the Pats are Gutz won't be picked off the PS. Really he has not proven a whole heck of a lot in college or NFL. I feel he can easily be stashed on the PS. If I were the Pats I would give Cassel that one more year on the team to prove himself. Keep Gutz on the PS to get one more year under his belt, and put O'C as the #3 (he would easily get picked off being on the PS) to also get a year under his belt.

 

[PatsFan37]

It really depends on how confident the Pats are Gutz won't be picked off the PS. Really he has not proven a whole heck of a lot in college or NFL. I feel he can easily be stashed on the PS. If I were the Pats I would give Cassel that one more year on the team to prove himself. Keep Gutz on the PS to get one more year under his belt, and put O'C as the #3 (he would easily get picked off being on the PS) to also get a year under his belt.

I don't know, I always got the feeling that developmental QBs were a different animal, they get picked up pretty quickly. He didn't show much because #3 QBs don't get a lot of opportunity. In the chances he had, he made some mistakes but he also made some pretty decent plays. While O'C most definitely would not pass waivers, no 3rd rounder would, I don't think Gutz would either.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

It really depends on how confident the Pats are Gutz won't be picked off the PS. Really he has not proven a whole heck of a lot in college or NFL. I feel he can easily be stashed on the PS. If I were the Pats I would give Cassel that one more year on the team to prove himself. Keep Gutz on the PS to get one more year under his belt, and put O'C as the #3 (he would easily get picked off being on the PS) to also get a year under his belt.

That's assuming that Gutierrez can be placed on the PS; since he was dressed for every game last season, I'm not sure he's still eligible.

 

[WhiZa]

That's assuming that Gutierrez can be placed on the PS; since he was dressed for every game last season, I'm not sure he's still eligible.

see post #3

 

[bbabin]

Looks like Reiss is planning on doing the same thing here. I think it will be interesting to compare ideas. The two of you seem to agree on QB.

STRENGTH Tom Brady, one of the game's greats, has been an ironman, starting 127 straight games (including playoffs). Only Peyton Manning (172) has more consecutive starts among active quarterbacks (Brett Favre, with 274, would re-take the top spot should he un-retire).

WEAKNESS Unproven options behind Brady as second-stringer Matt Cassel, third option Matt Gutierrez and rookie Kevin O'Connell have a combined zero NFL starts.

TOP QUESTIONS Can Cassel -- entering his fourth NFL season -- keep his hold on the No. 2 spot? Will the Patriots keep four quarterbacks on the final 53-man roster?

INSTANT ANALYSIS In making the club as a rookie free agent last year, Gutierrez (6-4, 230) was composed and in command in preseason action. But from this view, the Patriots essentially had him working off a limited script, so the challenge this year will be to show he can operate as smoothly with more responsibilites. His battle with Cassel (6-4, 230) figures to be one of the more notable training camp storylines. Given the complexity of the Patriots' offense, this would presumably be a learning-behind-the-scenes year for O'Connell (6-5, 225).

FUTURE Brady is signed through the 2010 season. Cassel is a free agent after the 2008 season, which was cited as one reason the Patriots drafted O'Connell in the latter part of the third round this year. Gutierrez becomes an exclusive rights free agent after the 2008 season, meaning the Patriots still control his rights. O'Connell has yet to sign.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2008/07/patriots_qb_sna.html

 

[strongside]

Looks like Reiss is planning on doing the same thing here. I think it will be interesting to compare ideas. The two of you seem to agree on QB.



http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2008/07/patriots_qb_sna.html

I left these questions for for Reiss on hthe blog but wondered what you guys's thought:


1. Brady spoke a lot last year about limiting how much he throws at camp. Do you think that will be the plan again? Did he find a difference in arm strength late in the year versus previous years?

2. Also, with such emotional and physically draining year extending into February, does BB handle Brady differently in preseason games by limiting his play even more?