Specter: Goodell's explanations don't pass scrutiny

[pao]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

Because it's not important enough. Not even close. Neither is the steroids crap. The NFL and MLB have their existence riding on the fans supporting the game, it's up to them to run it. Sphincter has no business wasting our tax dollars on this crap and quit throwing out the blanket "anti trust exemption" crap. That doesn't give Sphincter the right to hang it over the NFL's head every time the little prick wants something.

I, for one, am glad to see it. Especially if it is leaguewide. Why? Because I want the winner of the game to be the best team, coached the best. I don't want the winner to be determined by who can get the best video and apply it to their gameplan. I don't care who else does it, who did it, or even when it became illegal. I want every team to have to follow the same STATED rules. If it's a rule follow it. If you don't follow it then suffer the consequences. Patriot fans need to take a step back and think about this, if it were another team doing it, say the Colts, wouldn't you be up in arms about it? Don't answer, I already know the answer.

pao

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

I, for one, am glad to see it. Especially if it is leaguewide. Why? Because I want the winner of the game to be the best team, coached the best. I don't want the winner to be determined by who can get the best video and apply it to their gameplan. I don't care who else does it, who did it, or even when it became illegal. I want every team to have to follow the same STATED rules. If it's a rule follow it. If you don't follow it then suffer the consequences. Patriot fans need to take a step back and think about this, if it were another team doing it, say the Colts, wouldn't you be up in arms about it? Don't answer, I already know the answer.

pao

Newsflash: part of coaching is knowing the tendencies of your opponent.


Have a nice day.

 

[pao]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

Newsflash: part of coaching is knowing the tendencies of your opponent.


Have a nice day.

Come on, that's the best you can do? Like I said, best team, coached the best. Gaining your opponent's tendencies through illegal means is not the same. Follow the rules or accept the consequences when caught. I don't care what team gets caught there should be consequences. Have a nice day.

pao

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

Come on, that's the best you can do? Like I said, best team, coached the best. Gaining your opponent's tendencies through illegal means is not the same. Follow the rules or accept the consequences when caught. I don't care what team gets caught there should be consequences. Have a nice day.

pao

Stealing signals is not "illegal".

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

You realize that the information that the Patriots collected was 100% legal, right? They just committed a procedural infraction in the process of collecting it. If you think that the location from which they taped signals had a significant impact on games, and a 18-1 season post-spygate won't convince you otherwise, then I don't even know what to tell you at this point. Clearly, you're just going to believe whatever you want to believe.

 

[pao]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

Stealing signals is not "illegal".

I didn't say it was. I said gaining opponent's tendencies through illegal means.

pao

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

I didn't say it was. I said gaining opponent's tendencies through illegal means.

pao

Videotaping coaching signals is a perfectly legal means. He just committed a procedural infraction while doing it. Much like, while socks aren't 'illegal' in the NFL, not wearing them high enough up on your leg is. Or how wearing a non-sanctioned helmet decal is 'illegal'. Sure, it's a minor infraction, and you can't really argue with any penalty that happens to be levied, but that doesn't make it cheating.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

I didn't say it was. I said gaining opponent's tendencies through illegal means.

pao

You really don't know wtf you are saying ... on that we all can agree.

 

[upstater1]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

Come on, that's the best you can do? Like I said, best team, coached the best. Gaining your opponent's tendencies through illegal means is not the same. Follow the rules or accept the consequences when caught. I don't care what team gets caught there should be consequences. Have a nice day.

pao

This is the problem however: gaining them through illegal means is as easy as gaining them through legal means. You can tape the opponent's signals from a part of the stadium that's enclosed by three walls. You can biy them from someone in the stands, as we learned in 2006. You can get them off the TV tape. You can get them off the coach's tape. You can hire a couple guys to transcribe them.

Belichick was simply cutting costs by using one guy to steal them. It's just as easy to do it any other way with a camera, and it requires probably one extra person to do it by sight.

 

[pao]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

You realize that the information that the Patriots collected was 100% legal, right?

I'm not saying it wasn't.

They just committed a procedural infraction in the process of correcting it.

In other words they broke a rule.

If you think that the location from which they taped signals had a significant impact on games,...

I didn't say it did or didn't. It doesn't matter anyway. It's a rule. Anyone breaking it, especially after being warned about it multiple times, deserves consequences. Not just the Patriots, ANY team doing it.

... and a 18-1 season post-spygate won't convince you otherwise, then I don't even know what to tell you at this point.

I have all respect in the world for the Patriots 18-1 season. But it has nothing to do with previous seasons or whether or not they, OR ANY OTHER TEAM, deserve to suffer the consequences when caught breaking the rules.

Clearly, you're just going to believe whatever you want to believe.

What I believe in is playing by the rules. Giving everyone a level playing field and play the game. The Patriots were given their consequences, they stopped breaking the rule, and had a great season. Kudos to them. I'm not even talking about the Patriots now, I'm talking league wide. Investigate. Bust the rule breakers, whoever they are. The Patriots don't need this gamemanship anyway. They have the best in the business in the 3 most important positions, GM, HC and QB. They don't need this other stuff.

pao

 

[pao]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

You really don't know wtf you are saying ... on that we all can agree.

Wow, you really showed me.

pao

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

I'm not saying it wasn't. In other words they broke a rule.
I didn't say it did or didn't. It doesn't matter anyway. It's a rule. Anyone breaking it, especially after being warned about it multiple times, deserves consequences. Not just the Patriots, ANY team doing it. I have all respect in the world for the Patriots 18-1 season. But it has nothing to do with previous seasons or whether or not they, OR ANY OTHER TEAM, deserve to suffer the consequences when caught breaking the rules.
What I believe in is playing by the rules. Giving everyone a level playing field and play the game. The Patriots were given their consequences, they stopped breaking the rule, and had a great season. Kudos to them. I'm not even talking about the Patriots now, I'm talking league wide. Investigate. Bust the rule breakers, whoever they are. The Patriots don't need this gamemanship anyway. They have the best in the business in the 3 most important positions, GM, HC and QB. They don't need this other stuff.

pao

I actually pretty much agree with that post. They broke a rule, they were punished, and they accepted the punishment. What more do you want? I'm also for a league-wide investigation, since I think the Pats would be the least harmed by it of any team in the league (the skeletons in their closet are already out in the open anyways). Maybe I misinterpreted your earlier posts, then, because I read them differently.

 

[pao]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

This is the problem however: gaining them through illegal means is as easy as gaining them through legal means. You can tape the opponent's signals from a part of the stadium that's enclosed by three walls. You can biy them from someone in the stands, as we learned in 2006. You can get them off the TV tape. You can get them off the coach's tape. You can hire a couple guys to transcribe them.

Belichick was simply cutting costs by using one guy to steal them. It's just as easy to do it any other way with a camera, and it requires probably one extra person to do it by sight.

Upstater, I really respect your posts. I understand your point about Spygate. It is a dead issue as far as I am concerned. The Patriots were given penalties and it is over. They proved, obviously, that they did not gain a competitive advantage this year due to Spygate. I agree with all of that. My participation in this thread was to say I hope that Congress DOES investigate the NFL as someone else here suggested. To weed out any transgressions by ANY team (including my Chargers if it happens that they are caught). That those teams caught breaking the rules suffer the consequences. And from there have games decided by the players the GMs select, the game plans the HCs implement, and the execution of the players. May the best organisation/team win.

pao

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

I didn't say it was. I said gaining opponent's tendencies through illegal means.

pao

There was no "illegal means". For crying out loud, is it too much to ask for people to at least know what the hell they are talking about?

There was a rule. There was a memo. The rule, as stated in the memo, was open to interpretation, and there had never been a ruling on it. Therefore, there had been no "warning", there had been no violation of a definitive rule, and there had been no occasion to determine whether or not the filming being done by New England was to be considered such a violation.

Your argument is essentially an ex post facto argument. What was not penalized for years despite being done openly was suddenly penalized. Therefore, it's clear that illegal means were used.

Thank goodness you're not a Supreme Court Justice.

 

[pao]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

I actually pretty much agree with that post. They broke a rule, they were punished, and they accepted the punishment.

Right! End of story. They went on to post the most remarkable regular season in NFL history!

What more do you want? I'm also for a league-wide investigation, since I think the Pats would be the least harmed by it of any team in the league (the skeletons in their closet are already out in the open anyways).

Exactly. I actually believe that it would be to the Patriots advantage if they investigated the whole league because it would be shown that very many if not all teams were doing the same or similar things. Until that is proven in some public forum the Patriots will be vilified (especially by those with an anti-Patriot agenda).

pao

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

Right! End of story. They went on to post the most remarkable regular season in NFL history!
Exactly. I actually believe that it would be to the Patriots advantage if they investigated the whole league because it would be shown that very many if not all teams were doing the same or similar things. Until that is proven in some public forum the Patriots will be vilified (especially by those with an anti-Patriot agenda).

pao

Ha, just goes to show that message board arguments can literally stem from nothing, I guess

 

[upstater1]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

Upstater, I really respect your posts. I understand your point about Spygate. It is a dead issue as far as I am concerned. The Patriots were given penalties and it is over. They proved, obviously, that they did not gain a competitive advantage this year due to Spygate. I agree with all of that. My participation in this thread was to say I hope that Congress DOES investigate the NFL as someone else here suggested. To weed out any transgressions by ANY team (including my Chargers if it happens that they are caught). That those teams caught breaking the rules suffer the consequences. And from there have games decided by the players the GMs select, the game plans the HCs implement, and the execution of the players. May the best organisation/team win.

pao

This would destroy the game and be a monumental waste of money for congress.

There is no way to police this sort of thing. I like the taste of sausage. I refuse to see how it's made.

Asking congress to clean up football from what we should normally only recognize as gamesmanship is a waste. It's like saying that Britain should not have been allowed to break German codes in WW2 because it gave their army an unfair advantage.

Or better yet, asking Congress to get involved in this is like aking them to patrol every bedroom in America to make sure no blue laws are being broken.

Just tell congress to stay away, and tell Goodell to give our 1st rounder back that he took from us just to save face.

There is no way to police the stealing of signals. And for that precise reason, the NFL has no rules against stealing signals. In fact, Goodell admitted this to Bob Costas. Goodell so much as said it's all about appearances.

For the good of the NFL, I would simply say, end this. Fine, take away the Patriots draft choice, and let it be the end.

 

[pao]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

There was no "illegal means". For crying out loud, is it too much to ask for people to at least know what the hell they are talking about?

Hmmm, I don't want to get in a big discussion about Spygate because I believe the Patriots have been disciplined and we are past that. They broke a rule, were disciplined and moved on.

There was a rule. There was a memo. The rule, as stated in the memo, was open to interpretation, and there had never been a ruling on it.

Boy, I would sure like to see the text of that memo. That is definitely NOT the way I remember reports of it. I could be wrong so I would appreciate it if someone could post a link to the text of the memo.

Therefore, there had been no "warning", there had been no violation of a definitive rule, and there had been no occasion to determine whether or not the filming being done by New England was to be considered such a violation.

Are you sure you want to argue this? Unless you disagree with Goodell you are wrong here I think. But again that is in the past. Tried, convicted, sentenced.

Your argument is essentially an ex post facto argument.

Not sure why that is a problem.

What was not penalized for years despite being done openly was suddenly penalized.

I don't think what the Patriots did was done openly for years.

Therefore, it's clear that illegal means were used.

Well at least we agree there.

Thank goodness you're not a Supreme Court Justice.

Boy, the country would be in trouble if either of us were, wouldn't it?

pao

 

[pao]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

This would destroy the game and be a monumental waste of money for congress.

There is no way to police this sort of thing. I like the taste of sausage. I refuse to see how it's made.

Asking congress to clean up football from what we should normally only recognize as gamesmanship is a waste. It's like saying that Britain should not have been allowed to break German codes in WW2 because it gave their army an unfair advantage.

Or better yet, asking Congress to get involved in this is like aking them to patrol every bedroom in America to make sure no blue laws are being broken.

Just tell congress to stay away, and tell Goodell to give our 1st rounder back that he took from us just to save face.

There is no way to police the stealing of signals. And for that precise reason, the NFL has no rules against stealing signals. In fact, Goodell admitted this to Bob Costas. Goodell so much as said it's all about appearances.

For the good of the NFL, I would simply say, end this. Fine, take away the Patriots draft choice, and let it be the end.

Thank you upstater. I think I understand now that from a Patriot fan pov the means may have been wrong but the result wasn't. Ipso facto there should have been no punishment. Since they were "stealing" signals, a time honored craft in football and other sports, and not gaining any other competitive advantage it should not have been made into a big deal. Is that about right?

pao

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Breaking "Spygate" news

Hmmm, I don't want to get in a big discussion about Spygate because I believe the Patriots have been disciplined and we are past that. They broke a rule, were disciplined and moved on.

Boy, I would sure like to see the text of that memo. That is definitely NOT the way I remember reports of it. I could be wrong so I would appreciate it if someone could post a link to the text of the memo.
Are you sure you want to argue this? Unless you disagree with Goodell you are wrong here I think. But again that is in the past. Tried, convicted, sentenced.

Not sure why that is a problem.
I don't think what the Patriots did was done openly for years.

Well at least we agree there.

Boy, the country would be in trouble if either of us were, wouldn't it?

pao

You really have no clue, and that's sad. Breaking down a point to try to argue that it says precisely the opposite of what it does is pathetic, by the way.