will the Pats spend?

[Wozzy]

The team had to have paid much more to keep Belichick than any other team paid for a HC for two decades. Never any sign of dispute. I'm sure Bill wanted to be paid the most.

They were the first team to buy a team plane. Now they get roasted because it's the oldest.

They stepped up to keep Josh McDaniels at a critical point.

The great ones are often more careful with everything. Auerbach was considered cheap too as a GM. Kraft is a businessman. He's put the money where it's most effective. The results have been phenomenal. The team had zero championships before Kraft. And under his ownership now has them back quickly again.

But you whine over player association polls, amenities, and things fired coaches say. This is a non issue to success, and the "he's cheap" take isn't even true anyway anymore than the crying from former BB players. And I'll take titles and Super Bowl appearances.

Where did I whine?

The original poster is blaming fans for something the players and former coaches voted on or said. He’s also trying to conflate payroll with facilities and amenities. I never whined, I just pointed out where he was wrong.

The irony is I have a twenty+ year posting history defending the Patriots payroll and salary cap allocation as “smart.”

At the same time Rkarp was calling Bill cheap, not knowing that their low spending ways were going on for two coaches prior to the guy living rent free in his head.

It was cool when he could blame “cheap” on BB, but when current NFLPA player polls and historical data shows it was the team all along… it’s no longer cool. He’s full of manure.

 

[rkarp1]

Spending on payroll stayed the same. Nothing changed really, other than fewer players got paid under Carroll and the team was top heavy and talent light.

Cash spending numbers are not opinion… they’re facts.

NFLPA polls are voted on by the players, Carroll’s opinion is his own… it has nothing to do with me or other fans.

By the way I find your take to be hilarious considering the last decade of the dynasty you constantly called BB cheap for not overpaying for garbage and I constantly argued with you that spending to the cap and not overspending was smart.

You argued BB should be fired entering the 2014 season… that aged well.

forget Carroll
for the past 25 years, other than the last 3 years, Bill controlled the payroll

 

[JoeSixPat]

I have long complained that the knocks on RK or JK have been misplaced, when it comes to contracts.
I simply do not see them involved in day to day deals, other than for top of roster/top of market out lays. even that, they are kept in the loop rather than driving the bus.
before Wolf/Vrabel/Cowden, Bill had 100% total control of every deal.
"the Krafts are cheap" is commonly posted here.
is it the Krafts? or was it Bill?

before Bill arrived;

Drew Bledsoe (QB): Signed a massive seven-year, $42 million contract in 1995 that made him the highest-paid player in the NFL at the time.

Ty Law (CB): Signed a seven-year, $51 million extension in 1999. The deal featured a $14 million signing bonus, briefly making him the highest-paid defensive player in NFL history

Willie McGinest (DE/LB): Signed a five-year, $25 million extension in 1997.

Ted Johnson (LB): Signed a five-year, $25 million extension in August 1998. The deal was highly competitive with the league's top-paid linebackers

Ben Coates (TE): Signed a six-year, $18 million extension in 1996.

Terry Glenn (WR): Signed a six-year, $33.6 million contract extension in 1999. The deal included an $11.5 million signing bonus

after Bill arrived;
Brady, Solder, Welkie, Mal Butler, Samuel, AdamV, Vince, Mankie..all left over money

Bill made uber smart roster decisions. Bill made shrewd free agency decisions. Bill had the golden touch for almost 2 decades. Bill also had Brady to bail him out.
Post Brady, everything Bill touched, failed.
but "Kraft is cheap"? the numbers do not back that up.
"Bill was smart". "Bill made those financial decisions" should be the rhetoric.

Actually Bledsoe signed for $103 million over 10 years with @ $8 million signing bonus - he earned about $40 million of that after being traded - and the contract was actually designed with an out as they were actually taking interest in Brady at that time, looking for a manageagle cap hit of under $7 million (big at the time at 9% of their cap space but still affordable given that they had Brady under a rookie contract.)

I'm confident they'll extend Gonzo to get out of his $18 mil next season and give him some security to play for a low salary this year

Maye can't be extended until next year and that's one they have to plan for with the moves they make this season, but he's not going anywhere - and rumor has it that he's prepared to do a team friendly contract to make sure he has good players around him - but it will still be our biggest cap hit I'm sure

 

[Triumph]

I have long complained that the knocks on RK or JK have been misplaced, when it comes to contracts.
I simply do not see them involved in day to day deals, other than for top of roster/top of market out lays. even that, they are kept in the loop rather than driving the bus.
before Wolf/Vrabel/Cowden, Bill had 100% total control of every deal.
"the Krafts are cheap" is commonly posted here.
is it the Krafts? or was it Bill?

before Bill arrived;

Drew Bledsoe (QB): Signed a massive seven-year, $42 million contract in 1995 that made him the highest-paid player in the NFL at the time.

Ty Law (CB): Signed a seven-year, $51 million extension in 1999. The deal featured a $14 million signing bonus, briefly making him the highest-paid defensive player in NFL history

Willie McGinest (DE/LB): Signed a five-year, $25 million extension in 1997.

Ted Johnson (LB): Signed a five-year, $25 million extension in August 1998. The deal was highly competitive with the league's top-paid linebackers

Ben Coates (TE): Signed a six-year, $18 million extension in 1996.

Terry Glenn (WR): Signed a six-year, $33.6 million contract extension in 1999. The deal included an $11.5 million signing bonus

after Bill arrived;
Brady, Solder, Welkie, Mal Butler, Samuel, AdamV, Vince, Mankie..all left over money

Not accurate.

Brady left because of the WR corps. BB assembled misfits and people off the streets for Brady to work with. Brady was sick of taking less money only for BB to ignore the WR room.

Welker was basically done and BB had Edelman on deck. I dont recall Welker being that successful post Patriots. Welker and Manning were crushed in the SB by the Seahawks.

Adam V's kickoffs were getting weak. A dome was the best spot for him to extend his NFL career.

I dont recall Solder, Butler, Vince and Mankins all having that much success after they left NE. Certainly not like Joe Thuney.

Bill made uber smart roster decisions. Bill made shrewd free agency decisions. Bill had the golden touch for almost 2 decades. Bill also had Brady to bail him out.
Post Brady, everything Bill touched, failed.

BB is on the hook for Scam Newton, but not Corky Mac.

but "Kraft is cheap"? the numbers do not back that up.
"Bill was smart". "Bill made those financial decisions" should be the rhetoric.

 

[JoeSixPat]

forget Carroll
for the past 25 years, other than the last 3 years, Bill controlled the payroll

Yup - and he kindof mismanaged it with just $29 million available when they let Brady walk. While technically that would have been enough to retain him, Brady knew that wouldn't leave much for personnel around him to win the SB, and he had been able to get a no-franchise tag agreement so he had all the leverage and left for TB where he initially signed a team friendly contract but then signed an extension that paid him in the $28 mil a season amount compared to the $15 mil he'd been averaging here

Brady took less to have better players around him but Belichick's cap management made it clear that if he resigned here and got fair market value he'd not have the players around him to win - and he wasn't wrong.

Belichick himsef might have seen the writing on the wall himself and knew he was going to be let go so that may have contributed to a "spend and win now" mentality that left the team in a bad place for Mayo (who was never going to be half the coach he was)

So basically BB is responsbile for the cap constraints that ensured Mayo would fail - though even there I think Kraft may have known that Mayo (or whoever the next coach was) was destined to fail given the cap space - he might have even been looking at Vrabel at the time as he was fired just before the signing of Mayo, but the deal for Mayo was already done at that point

They knew what they had in Mayo after a year and were probably thrilled and surprised that Vrabel was still available and obviously chose to make that move after one season - I have a feeling they were talking to Vrabel well before they fired Mayo, giving Vrabel his dream job

 

[ctpatsfan77]

So basically BB is responsbile for the cap constraints that ensured Mayo would fail - though even there I think Kraft may have known that Mayo (or whoever the next coach was) was destined to fail given the cap space - he might have even been looking at Vrabel at the time as he was fired just before the signing of Mayo, but the deal for Mayo was already done at that point

Belichick certainly didn't set Mayo up for success, and neither did Kraft. That said, it basically came down to the fact that Drake Maye showed he was even better than advertised. Kraft had to choose between Maye's development and Mayo's, and correctly chose Maye's.

 

[Wozzy]

forget Carroll
for the past 25 years, other than the last 3 years, Bill controlled the payroll

Parcells, Carroll, Belichick, Mayo, Vrabel… those are the coaches during Kraft ownership.

The Pats were near last during the first two coaches tenures… so player spending didn’t change much.

During Bill’s tenure the franchise became one of the most valued in all of sports. Kraft was accused of being cheap because everything outside of personal… no matter how much you attempt to distract from that.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Belichick certainly didn't set Mayo up for success, and neither did Kraft. That said, it basically came down to the fact that Drake Maye showed he was even better than advertised. Kraft had to choose between Maye's development and Mayo's, and correctly chose Maye's.

Yeah, I just kindof feel like Kraft and maybe everyone knew the next coach after BB was destined to fail if making the playoffs were the barometer of success. I'd think Kraft may have given Mayo a gentleman's agreement that he'd give him more than one season but his coaching moves, stupid comments, and final "win" to lose the #1 pick (which I think we would have traded back on to still grab an LT) was enough to make clear that Mayo was never the right guy to lead the team.

I never understood what the infatuation with Mayo was, and even felt that his "mission" in the first season was to tank and no other hired coach would be willing to do that - but he did that TOO well right until the last game.

 

[rkarp1]

Not accurate.

Brady left because of the WR corps. BB assembled misfits and people off the streets for Brady to work with. Brady was sick of taking less money only for BB to ignore the WR room.

Welker was basically done and BB had Edelman on deck. I dont recall Welker being that successful post Patriots. Welker and Manning were crushed in the SB by the Seahawks.

Adam V's kickoffs were getting weak. A dome was the best spot for him to extend his NFL career.

I dont recall Solder, Butler, Vince and Mankins all having that much success after they left NE. Certainly not like Joe Thuney.

BB is on the hook for Scam Newton, but not Corky Mac.

I maintain Brady would have stayed forever, if he were able to control when he would retire, and not have Bill make that decision for him.
Brady wanted a 3-4 year deal for shorter money, with the agreement he decided when he was no longer capable...
Bill would not agree to those terms
it wasn't financial. it wasn't the WR's. it wasn't his wife
Brady wanted to control his last remaining seasons

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I don't think it is as simple as spending to the cap. The contracts can be structured to spread out over years to spread the cap hit. That allows more players to be signed in one cap year, which requires more cash, but spending to the cap is the same. There are other ways to finagle the cap as well. These cap massaging techniques can accelerate and increase upfront cash while always spending to the cap.

I am not sure the Pats are in the right position to accelerate the cash spend at this time, but when it is appropriate, will the Kraft's spend the extra dollars? The Krafts being cheap or not is relevant to that question.

Spend is the same; it's the risk profile and the perception of relative value of the outlier that's at issue. It's not being "cheap" because he's not hitting the Kramer Mad Money "Buy buy buy!" button, it's just being less bullish than the next guy.

He has definitely shown a slowness to sign onto the "spend now while Drake's cheap" type narrative before, in the first dynasty years. ************, Pats fans sound like Egyptologists now. Back then it was Pay Brady only, then it was Pay Brady and Seymour, then to an extent, the floodgates opened. They had younger, cheaper guys, and a few big splashes, largely guys everybody else thought were radioactive (Dillon then Moss). Then we reverted to the mean. Main point, the narrative that "it's (automatically) time to spend bc Drake is young" would be new. Maybe we'll do it, but in the past, the results were pretty good even if we were cheap by that measure. I don't think the "cheap" thing hurts his feelings that much, bc if there's one thing BK knows how to do, it's make sure there's a happy ending. See what I did there.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. I would never say that because that would be hypocritical of me. Also, you.

You're right, terrible phrasing on my part. I was just feisty and cranky.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

The irony is I have a twenty+ year posting history defending the Patriots payroll and salary cap allocation as “wicked smaht.”

FIFY

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Spend is the same; it's the risk profile and the perception of relative value of the outlier that's at issue. It's not being "cheap" because he's not hitting the Kramer Mad Money "Buy buy buy!" button, it's just being less bullish than the next guy.

He has definitely shown a slowness to sign onto the "spend now while Drake's cheap" type narrative before, in the first dynasty years. ************, Pats fans sound like Egyptologists now. Back then it was Pay Brady only, then it was Pay Brady and Seymour, then to an extent, the floodgates opened. They had younger, cheaper guys, and a few big splashes, largely guys everybody else thought were radioactive (Dillon then Moss). Then we reverted to the mean. Main point, the narrative that "it's (automatically) time to spend bc Drake is young" would be new. Maybe we'll do it, but in the past, the results were pretty good even if we were cheap by that measure. I don't think the "cheap" thing hurts his feelings that much, bc if there's one thing BK knows how to do, it's make sure there's a happy ending. See what I did there.

If you plan on a 20 year run, then you have to play the salary cap pretty straight up to keep the cap even year on year. Big spends and then big "come to Mama" years don't work well for a long run. We will see what they do.

I think Kraft avoids the peak spending years because he is frugal. WIth BB and Brady, the Pats went on a 20 year run so they had to avoid the cap space "ups and downs" but I am not sure Vrabel and Maye can repeat Belichick and Brady. Next year would be a good time to play with the cap and spend a bunch (Maye is still low salary but in Y4) if they are going to do it. I doubt Kraft will do it but a couple of extra players in 2027 might work.

 

[Triumph]

I maintain Brady would have stayed forever, if he were able to control when he would retire, and not have Bill make that decision for him.
Brady wanted a 3-4 year deal for shorter money, with the agreement he decided when he was no longer capable...
Bill would not agree to those terms
it wasn't financial. it wasn't the WR's. it wasn't his wife
Brady wanted to control his last remaining seasons

Totally disagree.

At 44 yo, Brady was about his numbers, NFL records and legacy - eg Superbowl rings. More money cant buy more time and youth. In NE, Brady had the likes of Phil Dorsett, Josh Gordon, Uncle Ben Watson, Jak Meyers, Harry Kneal to pad his stats with the years that Brady had left. BB could not draft a WR to save his arse and Brady saw the writing on the wall. BB told Kraft that Brady was all done and in decline. Kraft even said so.

Money was not the issue for Brady.

 

[rkarp1]

Totally disagree.

At 44 yo, Brady was about his numbers, NFL records and legacy - eg Superbowl rings. More money cant buy more time and youth. In NE, Brady had the likes of Phil Dorsett, Josh Gordon, Uncle Ben Watson, Jak Meyers, Harry Kneal to pad his stats with the years that Brady had left. BB could not draft a WR to save his arse and Brady saw the writing on the wall. BB told Kraft that Brady was all done and in decline. Kraft even said so.

Money was not the issue for Brady.

I never said money was the issue
in fact I said he would have stayed for shorter money
he wanted the decision to be his on when he was finished, not Bill's