Harold Landry Update

[Ring 6]

So you’ve changed your stance.

Ponder, Dremont, Swinson and draft pick…. doesn’t take a first. Not if they believe Ponder is a first round caliber stud… and they do.

Nobody is arguing, it’s a discussion.

If they believe ponder is a 1st round caliber player, we are in big trouble. But they don’t.

 

[dliverey44]

I think Landry is a full go and full time player from week 1.

I hope you're right

 

[dliverey44]

The

I haven't followed along.
Are there posters who actually prefer the 8th rated OT over a higher rated Edge?
That's draft fail 101.

thing is that ratings are subjective, I have seen Max Lineanchor as the 7th or 8th OT but I have him graded higher than the 4th Edge, so I don't think that its a fail to take the 8th guy at a position over the 4th guy at another. Several of the edge rushers have more warts imo.

 

[n1997y]

I think you would need data specific to how many starting offensive tackles come from each draft class versus outside linebackers or defensive ends.

It seems pretty obvious to me, there is a scarcity of quality starting tackles, there are few found in each draft class. Meanwhile there are a lot more edge players. Sure many are good players languishing on poor teams who can’t generate much pass rush or play defense well, but that’s a result of team.

Here’s some data I got by asking grok about highest paid players (non QB). It reflects both supply and demand and the value placed on each position.

Note the position played by four out of the five highest paid non QBs…

If they were as common as some posts on here suggest I don’t think the list would be that skewed.

 

[n1997y]

Here’s some data I got by asking grok about highest paid players (non QB). It reflects both supply and demand and the value placed on each position.

Note the position played by four out of the five highest paid non QBs…

For jollies I asked grok to look at top ten. That brought the proportion down to 7 of 10 players at that one same position…

 

[DoubleDeluxe]

The

thing is that ratings are subjective, I have seen Max Lineanchor as the 7th or 8th OT but I have him graded higher than the 4th Edge, so I don't think that its a fail to take the 8th guy at a position over the 4th guy at another. Several of the edge rushers have more warts imo.

I have always included Max in my top 7.
As are Lomu and Miller.
If those 3 are gone and you take the next guy ahead of the 4th rated Edge, then that is a massive fail, and massive reach.

 

[Ring 6]

For jollies I asked grok to look at top ten. That brought the proportion down to 7 of 10 players at that one same position…

Interestingly, 7 of the top 10 highest paid non QBs are DEs which says teams value DEs higher than any other non QB position, however none of the 7 have even been to a SB. Is it a fact that teams hurt themselves by overpaying DEs?

 

[Wozzy]

The hope is Landry can at least be a rotational contributor this season he's still valuable to the team as leader.

Was Diggs a rotational contributor last season after surgery?

Dre Jones, Ponder and the rookie edge rusher likely will be your starting/rotational guys.. Swinson, and another player currently not on the roster for depth. At this point whoever is taken first will ne an impact player for us. We have longerterm and immediate concerns at RT and most definitely at edge. Like I'm saying.. as currently constructed heading into the draft if a game were played today Ponder amd Jones are your starters at edge. Milt can play DE of course but his strength is inside, stunts & games with Barmore. They are near dominant when rushing inside together.. just imagine once the pass rush catches up.

What about the best DT on the board at 31 if there’s no OT there?

 

[Wozzy]

To kinda piggy back off you post. I can see a the start of the season, assuming that Landry is managed due to the injury, Milt-Barmore-Durden-Jones. The rotation being a mix of Landry, Ponder, Taylor, Farmer and possibly Swinson.
Milt is better inside but is quite formidable on the edge as well.

I am more worried about the ILB spot because Ellis is just OK and if Spillane who is 30 misses time then we are hurting. Jacob Rodriguez (I know it won't happen) is in serious consideration at 31. He is a ball hawk, very athletic and a future green dot.

They should take a LB in the middle rounds, there are some good guys sitting there. There’s also a possibility the future MLB is there already in Chad Muma, but adding to the competition here is smart.

 

[Wozzy]

If they believe ponder is a 1st round caliber player, we are in big trouble. But they don’t.

Wrong, the Patriots LB coach believes… and Ponder certainly has first round caliber athleticism.

 

[Wozzy]

Here’s some data I got by asking grok about highest paid players (non QB). It reflects both supply and demand and the value placed on each position.

Note the position played by four out of the five highest paid non QBs…

If they were as common as some posts on here suggest I don’t think the list would be that skewed.

Pay is not the data I was referring too.

 

[rkarp1]

Was Diggs a rotational contributor last season after surgery?

What about the best DT on the board at 31 if there’s no OT there?

interesting question on Diggs
perhaps we won't know until this season.
that said, last season he played 55% of the offensive snaps. far, far away, his lowest of his career.
injury or age?
Diggs had trouble separating. really did not show any of his pre injury explosion.
he was a rotational contributor for sure, but certainly not his usual self.
I am hoping Landry's injury allows him back at his old self 100%.

 

[Real fan 02]

Was Diggs a rotational contributor last season after surgery?

What about the best DT on the board at 31 if there’s no OT there?

Diggs Didn't have a prior knee surgery prior to his injury in Houston.

Absolutely I'd be all for it taking a DT provided he can be able to actually touch a QB and get consistent pressure.

 

[Wozzy]

interesting question on Diggs
perhaps we won't know until this season.
that said, last season he played 55% of the offensive snaps. far, far away, his lowest of his career.
injury or age?
Diggs had trouble separating. really did not show any of his pre injury explosion.
he was a rotational contributor for sure, but certainly not his usual self.
I am hoping Landry's injury allows him back at his old self 100%.

Diggs caught 1000 yards a year removed from knee surgery, he's also three years older than Landry playing a position that requires much more cutting and sharp changes of direction.

Luckily for the Pats they have Ponder to keep Landry fresh and rested, they can also get their money's worth from Dre'mont, then can potentially get something from Swinson or the guy(s) they add from this draft class. I like an edge guy in the second round potentially and then add another in the 6th or 7th or even UDFA. They have 11 picks and plenty of money.

 

[n1997y]

Interestingly, 7 of the top 10 highest paid non QBs are DEs which says teams value DEs higher than any other non QB position, however none of the 7 have even been to a SB. Is it a fact that teams hurt themselves by overpaying DEs?

I’m not sure I would limit it to DEs, we just don’t have much data on other positions.

It’s also instructive to look at the highest paid QBs, and consider whether they have collected enough Lombardis to justify their pay.

Or perhaps paying high salaries doesn’t correlate with Super Bowl success? Or even has a negative correlation?

 

[Wozzy]

I’m not sure I would limit it to DEs, we just don’t have much data on other positions.

It’s also instructive to look at the highest paid QBs, and consider whether they have collected enough Lombardis to justify their pay.

Or perhaps paying high salaries doesn’t correlate with Super Bowl success? Or even has a negative correlation?

I think we're also lumping all these edge players in together, some like Watt are outside linebackers, whereas others are just DE's. Also teams often pay one serious edge rusher, but you definitely need two offensive tackles... pressure comes from all sides now, not just off the left side like primarily in the old days.

"Highest paid" changes over time as the league evolves. It became more of a passing league, so not surprisingly pass rushers salaries increased and RB's have decreased. Pressure started coming off both edges, so instead of one overly paid left tackle you now have the split the money between the two and there's a bigger emphasis on interior pressure also so guards get more.

The league is self correcting, run games will become more emphasized so eventually salaries will change to reflect that. I don't think "salary" and "importance" are the same thing anyhow, cutting edge teams buck trends, set them... not follow them.

After QB I'm still putting most of my money and resources in to line play on both sides of the ball... and there will still be fewer talented big guys in every draft class.

 

[n1997y]

After QB I'm still putting most of my money and resources in to line play on both sides of the ball... and there will still be fewer talented big guys in every draft class.

There’s so much good discussion to be had about this. I agree, and I’m not totally sold on good QBs being unicorns. I think it’s a very rare QB that can overcome poor line play and still elevate the team, OTOH I think there are quite a few good QBs that can elevate their play and the team when they are behind a good or very good OL.

Where things get very interesting is allocating resources in the trenches. It’s a numbers game, all the blockers have to win to keep the QB clean, while only one rusher has to win to get the sack. I’m usually going to favor a balanced offense that can use the run to set up the pass or pass to set up the run, so the defense can be kept off balance. Size is important on the OL but so is athleticism. It’s hard to find both. But it’s fun to watch when they do!

 

[Real fan 02]

I’m not sure I would limit it to DEs, we just don’t have much data on other positions.

It’s also instructive to look at the highest paid QBs, and consider whether they have collected enough Lombardis to justify their pay.

Or perhaps paying high salaries doesn’t correlate with Super Bowl success? Or even has a negative correlation?

Absolutely correct! Premium positions.

QB, WR, OT, CB, Edge all command $$$$ when you have a top 10 or top 5 player (s) at those position as he we have 2 of them teams Absolutely know they will have to pay. Wolf recent alluding to this himself.. although in Baltimore to see what Linderbaum got as an interior OL was astonishing.

 

[Real fan 02]

There’s so much good discussion to be had about this. I agree, and I’m not totally sold on good QBs being unicorns. I think it’s a very rare QB that can overcome poor line play and still elevate the team, OTOH I think there are quite a few good QBs that can elevate their play and the team when they are behind a good or very good OL.

Where things get very interesting is allocating resources in the trenches. It’s a numbers game, all the blockers have to win to keep the QB clean, while only one rusher has to win to get the sack. I’m usually going to favor a balanced offense that can use the run to set up the pass or pass to set up the run, so the defense can be kept off balance. Size is important on the OL but so is athleticism. It’s hard to find both. But it’s fun to watch when they do!

This. Is what most of us have said all off season trenches, trenches and more trenches.. go figure Bradbury was made available because we didn't have enough push and power in the trenches. Wilson is a ultra athletic OL that is natural position is C and he can flourish there. With a season of experience and additional muscle he will much better next season. Love watching an OL bully guys in the trenches. Same for the defensive side.. need interior run stuffers and edges that collapse the pocket.

 

[Wozzy]

There’s so much good discussion to be had about this. I agree, and I’m not totally sold on good QBs being unicorns. I think it’s a very rare QB that can overcome poor line play and still elevate the team, OTOH I think there are quite a few good QBs that can elevate their play and the team when they are behind a good or very good OL.

Where things get very interesting is allocating resources in the trenches. It’s a numbers game, all the blockers have to win to keep the QB clean, while only one rusher has to win to get the sack. I’m usually going to favor a balanced offense that can use the run to set up the pass or pass to set up the run, so the defense can be kept off balance. Size is important on the OL but so is athleticism. It’s hard to find both. But it’s fun to watch when they do!

Just for shts and giggles I did a deep dive on some later round OT's, if tackle isn't there at #1.

Keep in mind this list is late round, or guys projected to go undrafted, but there's obviously some teams smarter than others:

NAME SCHOOL HT WT 40 VERT REP BRD CONE SHTL
WINGSPAN

James Neal Iowa St 6-5 323 5.20 33.0 26 105 8.14 4.88
84 3/8"
If you want big and tall he's got it, he's got good explosion, strength and mobility for his size and has the widest wingspan here. "Big" is a trait Vrabel likes.

JC Davis Illinois 6-4 322 5.16 30.5 00 99 7.89 4.90
83 1/8"
He's only 6'4" but he is wide and has length. Has to work on his mobility but probably has versatility at tackle and guard if he develops.

Ryan Schernecke Kutztown 6-7 318 5.18 24.5 30 110 7.60 4.70
82 3/8"
Needs to do some plyometrics, a poor man's Max Ineachor, considering Max is coming from Nigeria and Ryan from Kutztown.

Alex Wollschlaeger Kentucky 6-6 305 5.09 32.0 30 108 7.47 4.75
82"
Needs to put on 15-20 more pounds, but not because he's weak. Great athlete with adequate wingspan. A poor man's Blake Miller.

They should go after some of these tackles late in the draft if the first two are gone.