OT: track record of Head Coaches with no success in their first stint becoming successful in their second stint.

[h0c2000]

Didn't Bill beat the Pats in a playoff game in 94?

New Year's Day 1995 to be exact.

 

[DaBruinz]

Off the top of my head, the examples I can think of are the old timers - Belichick, Carrol.

You could say Dan Campbell, but he was only an interim at Miami.

@Joey007 stated: "have their been any recent examples of a coach that had no seasons with a winning record in their first stint that ended up being successful in their second?"

Belichick doesn't fit the example. Belichick had a winning season with the Browns in 1994..

Pete Carroll does fit it because he lost his only season with the Jets and then was successful with the Pats and then with the Seahawks.

 

[DaBruinz]

To paraphrase The Princess Bride “There’s mostly dead and totally dead.” Kind of depends on exactly what you mean by “no sucess”

I think there are a fair number of coaches who underperformed their first time, either due to bad luck or a bad situation. Belichick being a fine example.

I don’t know there’s anyone who was a total 0/10 Jerod Mayo train wreck who went on to be a great coach.

Pete Carroll lost his only season as the Jets Head Coach. His next HC position was the Pats.

 

[DaBruinz]

To paraphrase The Princess Bride “There’s mostly dead and totally dead.” Kind of depends on exactly what you mean by “no sucess”

I think there are a fair number of coaches who underperformed their first time, either due to bad luck or a bad situation. Belichick being a fine example.

I don’t know there’s anyone who was a total 0/10 Jerod Mayo train wreck who went on to be a great coach.

Belichick took a 3-13 team and double the number of wins in his first season. Belichick turned them into a Play-off team in 1994, in his 4th year. His 5th year, the team started 3-1. They stumbled to a 4-5 record and then it was announced that the Team would be moving to Baltimore. Everyone around the team knew that Belichick was a lame duck coach at that point. Not his fault.

 

[Rob0729]

Real QB. Don't mean to disrespect him but it's the truth.

Tannehill wasn't bad for a few years in Tennessee.

 

[jmt57]

It really depends on how one defines unsuccessful and successful.
Here are some examples from the AFC, to varying degrees.
That said, for every one that 'succeeded' in their second stint, there are probably double the amount that failed in their second attempt.

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Wannstedt was 40-56 in six seasons for the Bears, never better than 9-7.
He won the AFCE his first year in Miami, going 11-5, 11-5, 9-7, 10-6.

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6-10 for the Jets, won the AFCE his first year, playoffs again in year two.
Not the best example though since he inherited a conference champion team.

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Bowles was 24-40 for the Jets, then won the division in each of his first three seasons in Tampa.

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Kubiak was only 61-64 in Houston, but his first gig could be termed successful as he did win two division titles near the end.
Two years after being fired he won a Super Bowl in his first year with Denver.

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In my opinion Dungy vastly underachieved in Tampa, since DC Monte Kiffin and GM Rich Mckay had assembled one of the best defenses in NFL history - yet Dungy only won one division title and two playoff games in six years. He went from a .563 winning % in Tampa to .759 in Indy, but considering the personnel he inherited, was one conference championship & SB in seven years really something to brag about?

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Pardee was mediocre in a pair of three-year stints with Chicago and Washington; then went to the playoffs in each of his first four years for Houston, including three division titles.

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Phillips was .500 in two seasons for Denver, then went 10-6 and 11-5 in Buffalo, and won two division titles with Dallas, including a 13-3 season. He improved with each step, but also won only one playoff game; does that exclude him from being termed successful?

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May be the best example of being better the second time around. Got a quick hook from Al Davis after a 7-9 season and a 1-3 start. Went 13-3 in his second season in Denver, then won back-to-back super bowls the next two seaons.

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While he did make it to the super bowl in his second season with Carolina, overall he was just a hair over .500 in nine seasons for the Panthers. Went 13-3, 13-3, 12-4 in Denver. Overall winning percentage was .719 vs .507.




Edit: I just re-read the original post, where the question is "have their been any recent examples of a coach that had no seasons with a winning record in their first stint that ended up being successful in their second?"

Using that criteria, the only coaches that qualify from the list above are Pete Carroll and Mike Shanahan - and neither fall under the category of "recent examples".

There really aren't that many head coaches that didn't have at least one season with a winning record in their first job as a head coach that get a second chance. Hue Jackson, Pat Shurmur, Josh McDaniels - there's probaly more, but it's got to be a very short list.

There are also plenty of coaches that had some initial success, but none on the second try. (e.g., Lovie Smith).

 

[p8ryts]

Tannehill wasn't bad for a few years in Tennessee.

He always threw an interception at the worst possible moment.

 

[Joey007]

@Joey007 stated: "have their been any recent examples of a coach that had no seasons with a winning record in their first stint that ended up being successful in their second?"

Belichick doesn't fit the example. Belichick had a winning season with the Browns in 1994..

Pete Carroll does fit it because he lost his only season with the Jets and then was successful with the Pats and then with the Seahawks.

I think Pete would be the best recent example.

Even with Pete, the guy was only given a single season, and it was the Jets.

 

[h0c2000]

Tannehill wasn't bad for a few years in Tennessee.

He wasn't bad NFL QB for a former college WR.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Vance Joseph is the beneficiary of all that talent at his disposal on defense. It would be comical if he was hired to be a HC as he is not a defensive wizard. They need to be looking for coaches doing more with less. Robert Saleh won't take that job, but it's guys like him who have 5th and 6th string guys holding on for dear life in SF. He was thrown under the bus in NY, but should succeed with a better organization.

 

[Joey007]

It really depends on how one defines unsuccessful and successful.
Here are some examples from the AFC, to varying degrees.
That said, for every one that 'succeeded' in their second stint, there are probably double the amount that failed in their second attempt.

Dave Wannstedt Record, Statistics, and Category Ranks | Pro-Football-Reference.com

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Wannstedt was 40-56 in six seasons for the Bears, never better than 9-7.
He won the AFCE his first year in Miami, going 11-5, 11-5, 9-7, 10-6.

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6-10 for the Jets, won the AFCE his first year, playoffs again in year two.
Not the best example though since he inherited a conference champion team.

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Bowles was 24-40 for the Jets, then won the division in each of his first three seasons in Tampa.

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Kubiak was only 61-64 in Houston, but his first gig could be termed successful as he did win two division titles near the end.
Two years after being fired he won a Super Bowl in his first year with Denver.

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In my opinion Dungy vastly underachieved in Tampa, since DC Monte Kiffin and GM Rich Mckay had assembled one of the best defenses in NFL history - yet Dungy only won one division title and two playoff games in six years. He went from a .563 winning % in Tampa to .759 in Indy, but considering the personnel he inherited, was one conference championship & SB in seven years really something to brag about?

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Pardee was mediocre in a pair of three-year stints with Chicago and Washington; then went to the playoffs in each of his first four years for Houston, including three division titles.

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Phillips was .500 in two seasons for Denver, then went 10-6 and 11-5 in Buffalo, and won two division titles with Dallas, including a 13-3 season. He improved with each step, but also won only one playoff game; does that exclude him from being termed successful?

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May be the best example of being better the second time around. Got a quick hook from Al Davis after a 7-9 season and a 1-3 start. Went 13-3 in his second season in Denver, then won back-to-back super bowls the next two seaons.

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While he did make it to the super bowl in his second season with Carolina, overall he was just a hair over .500 in nine seasons for the Panthers. Went 13-3, 13-3, 12-4 in Denver. Overall winning percentage was .719 vs .507.




Edit: I just re-read the original post, where the question is "have their been any recent examples of a coach that had no seasons with a winning record in their first stint that ended up being successful in their second?"

Using that criteria, the only coaches that qualify from the list above are Pete Carroll and Mike Shanahan - and neither fall under the category of "recent examples".

There really aren't that many head coaches that didn't have at least one season with a winning record in their first job as a head coach that get a second chance. Hue Jackson, Pat Shurmur, Josh McDaniels - there's probaly more, but it's got to be a very short list.

There are also plenty of coaches that had some initial success, but none on the second try. (e.g., Lovie Smith).

Good write up.

Looking through these, most of these guys at least had winning seasons in their first stops. So that much I would say is at least showing “signs” of success.

It looks like Shanahan and Pete are the best examples. But both were also given such short leashes, they never even really had time to succeed in their first stints. Looks like the only examples are guys who roughly only had a season (or slightly over a single season in Shanny’s case)

 

[Joey007]

Vance Joseph is the beneficiary of all that talent at his disposal on defense. It would be comical if he was hired to be a HC as he is not a defensive wizard. They need to be looking for coaches doing more with less. Robert Saleh won't take that job, but it's guys like him who have 5th and 6th string guys holding on for dear life in SF. He was thrown under the bus in NY, but should succeed with a better organization.

The one that always gets me is Mike Mularkey, who Vrabel replaced in Tennesee.

Had one good season in 04 with the Bills, where he was riding a Gregg Williams built defense, and went 9-7. Dips in performance in 05, fired.

People forget he then goes to Jacksonville in 2012 and goes 2-14. Horrible season, immediately fired. Deservedly so.

The division rival Titans then inexplicably give him another chance in 2016. He actually doesn’t do awful, goes 9-7 two years in a row and even wins a playoff game. But they clearly could tell their limitations with the guy, and still gets fired after 2017.

Probably the biggest “waste of time” coaching hire I can remember.

 

[Joey007]

Good write up.

Looking through these, most of these guys at least had winning seasons in their first stops. So that much I would say is at least showing “signs” of success.

It looks like Shanahan and Pete are the best examples. But both were also given such short leashes, they never even really had time to succeed in their first stints. Looks like the only examples are guys who roughly only had a season (or slightly over a single season in Shanny’s case)

One last deep pull: Marv Levy had a pretty poor first NFL HC stint with the Chiefs. I think he only went 9-7 once in his tenure, was largely bad otherwise.

 

[Family]

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In my opinion Dungy vastly underachieved in Tampa, since DC Monte Kiffin and GM Rich Mckay had assembled one of the best defenses in NFL history - yet Dungy only won one division title and two playoff games in six years. He went from a .563 winning % in Tampa to .759 in Indy, but considering the personnel he inherited, was one conference championship & SB in seven years really something to brag about?

He has to receive some credit for changing the culture. Tampa Bay had 14 straight losing seasons until Dungy's second year as coach.

There is evidence, however, that the Colts underachieved under Dungy, but again he did a good job with culture.

IMO Dungy was an exceptional coach/teacher building a team, but lacked many other attributes that get you further when it counts.

 

[rochrist]

Carrol in his 3 years with the Pats went to the playoffs twice and went 8-8 his last year. He was a winning HC.

Because he inherited a team fresh off a SB appearance.

 

[Joey007]

He has to receive some credit for changing the culture. Tampa Bay had 14 straight losing seasons until Dungy's second year as coach.

There is evidence, however, that the Colts underachieved under Dungy, but again he did a good job with culture.

IMO Dungy was an exceptional coach/teacher building a team, but lacked many other attributes that get you further when it counts.

Dungy was the guy that breathed life into that franchise. I definitely wouldn’t call it underachieving all around. He was the one who largely built that defense. He just had shortcomings on offense that he couldn’t overcome year after year.

Their first year with Gruden in 02 worked so well because Dungy’s influence on the defense was entirely there, and Gruden’s offensive influence was able to build just enough to get what they needed from that side of the ball. It just didn’t sustain after that, as the defense slowly regressed during Gruden’s tenure after that year.

 

[gobesmug]

Because he inherited a team fresh off a SB appearance.

That doesnt mean much.

Look at the Falcons. After losing the superbowl they barely made the playoffs the following year and haven't had a winning record since.

Carrol inherited a team that had its HoF RB poached by the HC who left and tried taking everything with him.

 

[jmt57]

Dungy was the guy that breathed life into that franchise. I definitely wouldn’t call it underachieving all around. He was the one who largely built that defense. He just had shortcomings on offense that he couldn’t overcome year after year.

Their first year with Gruden in 02 worked so well because Dungy’s influence on the defense was entirely there, and Gruden’s offensive influence was able to build just enough to get what they needed from that side of the ball. It just didn’t sustain after that, as the defense slowly regressed during Gruden’s tenure after that year.

I've been living in the Tampa area for a long time, so I witnessed that team first hand since before they drafted Vinny Testaverde.

The architect of the defense was Monte Kiffen.

The key players were drafted when Sam Wyche was HC. Ronde Barber and Booger McFarland are the only notable defensive players added during all of the Dungy years.

The main reason for the turnaround was ownership.

Hugh Culverhouse had zero interest in wins and losses, only profits. He was more than happy to take his share of the network revenue and skimp on everything else. When Malcolm Glazer bought the team he was open to spending whatever it took to win.

Dungy gets lauded because he is a humble and likable person. He deserves credit, but not all of it.
Those three others (plus GM Rich McKay) had just as much if not more to do with the turnaround.

The success under Gruden couldn't sustain for three reasons. First, they had to trade away two first round draft picks and two seconds to get Gruden. Yes, the Patriots were able to overcome that with Belichcick, but that was a rare outlier. Second, the key players on defense were getting older, and their performances started to go downhill. Third was the QB position. Brad Johnson was about 35 at that point, and they never found a suitable replacement. Brian Griese, Chris Simms, Bruce Gradkowski, Jeff Garcia, one of the McCown's - a never-ending carousel of not horrible, but mediocre QBs.

The media here liked Dungy much more than Gruden, and the narrative has always been Gruden 'won with Dungy's team'. But if that's the case, shouldn't those same people be giving Jim Mora credit for the Colts' super bowl?

 

[BTTA]

I think Pete would be the best recent example.

Even with Pete, the guy was only given a single season, and it was the Jets.

From what we can see of visible evidence, he left with his sanity, without a chronic or communicable disease, with his reputation good enough to get another job fairly quickly, and after only one season. By any measure, this is tremendous success as a Jete coach. He may be at the top of the list this century. Who is there to compete with - Rex Ryan?

 

[p8ryts]

I think Pete would be the best recent example.

Even with Pete, the guy was only given a single season, and it was the Jets.

Wasn't that the year Marino faked the spike and threw a TD and NY fans went nuts and that was the nail in Petey's coffin.