PATRIOTS NEWS Minicamp

[Patjew]

That’s because you don’t think anyone else can return kicks, I do. And I don’t like their depth at slot corner at all.

Don’t tell me what I think!!!

I’m kidding. We know what we have in Marcus as a returner. Anyone unknown would be mediocre as a rule. And Marcus reminds me too much of Ellis Hobbs on defense AND that’s where he gets hurt.

That’s what I think.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Don’t tell me what I think!!!

I’m kidding. We know what we have in Marcus as a returner. Anyone unknown would be mediocre as a rule. And Marcus reminds me too much of Ellis Hobbs on defense AND that’s where he gets hurt.

That’s what I think.

I generally don’t like using starters on special teams, except for linemen, as they rarely get hurt in that role. If they had more depth at slot corner I would be more open to continuing Jones in his PR role, but imo the talent just isn’t there. And I do think both Larison and Chism can be really good return men.

 

[TommyD4207]

I generally don’t like using starters on special teams, except for linemen, as they rarely get hurt in that role. If they had more depth at slot corner I would be more open to continuing Jones in his PR role, but imo the talent just isn’t there. And I do think both Larison and Chism can be really good return men.

I dunno, if I have the best punt returner in the league, I'm going to put him out there. Maybe he'll win a game for you on a punt return (oh yeah, he did that already).

There's a difference between having 'a guy who can return kicks' and 'one of the best punt returners in the league'. You put Polk and Baker on kick return, because kick returns don't matter anymore. Punt returns do.

 

[jimnance]

I do believe Chism has also played some gunner.
So he doesn't need to be a returner to play on ST.
Marcus is too good a PR to give that up.
Chism could also be tried at KR.

 

[TheRainMaker]

I dunno, if I have the best punt returner in the league, I'm going to put him out there. Maybe he'll win a game for you on a punt return (oh yeah, he did that already).

There's a difference between having 'a guy who can return kicks' and 'one of the best punt returners in the league'. You put Polk and Baker on kick return, because kick returns don't matter anymore. Punt returns do.

Imagine the Bears telling Devin Hester as a rookie. "You know what? You're pretty electric as a returner, but we need you to play CB even though you're not that good at it."

 

[Huckleberry1]

I dunno, if I have the best punt returner in the league, I'm going to put him out there. Maybe he'll win a game for you on a punt return (oh yeah, he did that already).

There's a difference between having 'a guy who can return kicks' and 'one of the best punt returners in the league'. You put Polk and Baker on kick return, because kick returns don't matter anymore. Punt returns do.

I don’t think Polk or Baker will be in the team. I’m obviously concerned about Slot CB depth, but I could see using Chism and Larison for the majority of punt returns, and Jones in big situations and tight games. I think people will see that both Chism and Larison are very good return men.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

#Dumbass Wheelchair is a clown, and #Stonehands is ridiculous with his comments/performance.
These 2 could be cut without problem after they use them for Training Camp.
Maybe they both have talent like Clownshow Wolfe thought, but I doubt it.
They ALL have some talent, or they wouldn't be there.

 

[captain stone]

I definitely want MJ returning punts and I'd love to see him get a few gadget plays on offense too.

Our CB depth is pretty good. Austin and Bolden are veterans at this point.

Surely you can't be serious.

 

[203Pat]

Yep. Until they have someone else who can play that slot corner position better I think they need him there more than returning kicks, and I think both Chism and Larison can provide good punt returning for them. The slot corner position is basically a starting corner, and I don’t like their depth there. It’s one of the positions I think they need to address in the next free agency and draft.

So you would rather have two positions filled by average players instead of one position filled by an average player and one filled with an All-Pro.

 

[Water Boy]

Surely you can't be serious.

I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.

 

[Huckleberry1]

So you would rather have two positions filled by average players instead of one position filled by an average player and one filled with an All-Pro.

You can keep pretending that a kick returner is a full time position all you want to, I don’t buy it. One is a starter, the other is part time, a few plays a game as opposed to 50 snaps.

 

[Zoomnbyu]

I am serious. And don't call me Shirley.

That was a mandatory reply/GIF.

 

[SlowGettingUp]

Incidentally the number of punt returns per game has been steadily falling - not sure exactly why. Better punters maybe? More teams going for it on 4th down?
And this year with the new rules we should see a big uptick in kick returns - up from about 1/3 of kicks returned last year. I'm guessing nearly all kicks will now see a return. So kick returner is possibly a more important position than punt returner (although the latter is higher variance, so a star punt returner can still do good things).

 

[203Pat]

You can keep pretending that a kick returner is a full time position all you want to, I don’t buy it. One is a starter, the other is part time, a few plays a game as opposed to 50 snaps.

I will take a guy who is a threat to score 4 to 5x a game with the ball in his hands over a guy who is an average (at best) "starter". People seem to think because he is a good punt returner, he is a good corner. Jones has never shown the ability to play the slot corner role at a high level, and when he does play extended snaps at corner, he gets hurt. I don't have an issue playing Jones in the slot for packages or if they like a certain matchup, but there is way too much upside as a returner to take him out of that role permanently.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I will take a guy who is a threat to score 4 to 5x a game with the ball in his hands over a guy who is an average (at best) "starter". People seem to think because he is a good punt returner, he is a good corner. Jones has never shown the ability to play the slot corner role at a high level, and when he does play extended snaps at corner, he gets hurt. I don't have an issue playing Jones in the slot for packages or if they like a certain matchup, but there is way too much upside as a returner to take him out of that role permanently.

Marcus Jones is a “ threat to score 4-5 x a game”
Marcus Jones has 1 touchdown return of a punt in 58 punt returns. I’ll take the starting CB and let the kids return the punts.

 

[203Pat]

Marcus Jones is a “ threat to score 4-5 x a game”
Marcus Jones has 1 touchdown return of a punt in 58 punt returns. I’ll take the starting CB and let the kids return the punts.

Yes "threat" being the key word. To simply look at it and say "Score good, no score, bad" is not being able to see the forrest through the trees. Jones averaged almost 15 yards a punt return last year and when he isn't able to return a punt the "threat" of his abilities affects the way the opposition punts and influences field position. 15 yards and field position are pretty important for an offense that struggled to move the ball.

Jones is fine at corner but he can't seem to hold up with the physicality required at the position. His return abilities are elite and taking that away to hand over to some random nobodies isn't a net gain to the team.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Yes "threat" being the key word. To simply look at it and say "Score good, no score, bad" is not being able to see the forrest through the trees. Jones averaged almost 15 yards a punt return last year and when he isn't able to return a punt the "threat" of his abilities affects the way the opposition punts and influences field position. 15 yards and field position are pretty important for an offense that struggled to move the ball.

Jones is fine at corner but he can't seem to hold up with the physicality required at the position. His return abilities are elite and taking that away to hand over to some random nobodies isn't a net gain to the team.

A “ threat” means more than a 1.4 % chance to score a touchdown, and losing a starting cornerback is a far greater loss than losing his punt return duties and having good young returners replace him.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Yes "threat" being the key word. To simply look at it and say "Score good, no score, bad" is not being able to see the forrest through the trees. Jones averaged almost 15 yards a punt return last year and when he isn't able to return a punt the "threat" of his abilities affects the way the opposition punts and influences field position. 15 yards and field position are pretty important for an offense that struggled to move the ball.

Jones is fine at corner but he can't seem to hold up with the physicality required at the position. His return abilities are elite and taking that away to hand over to some random nobodies isn't a net gain to the team.

No one is arguing that Jones isn’t a good punt returner, he is, but claiming he’s a touchdown threat every time he touches the ball, when he only has 1 career TD return is bogus. It’s like saying a baseball player is “ a threat to hit a home run every time he steps to the plate “ when they average 1.5 home runs per 100 at bats, and 6 home runs a season.

 

[203Pat]

A “ threat” means more than a 1.4 % chance to score a touchdown, and losing a starting cornerback is a far greater loss than losing his punt return duties and having good young returners replace him.

No one is arguing that Jones isn’t a good punt returner, he is, but claiming he’s a touchdown threat every time he touches the ball, when he only has 1 career TD return is bogus. It’s like saying a baseball player is “ a threat to hit a home run every time he steps to the plate “ when they average 1.5 home runs per 100 at bats, and 6 home runs a season.

We can go around in circles all day. To me this is like saying we should have not had James White out there in the passing game so we could make sure we could get him carries in the running game. White was an average rusher but a great pass catching back. Basically we neuter his superpower in order to get him more volume in an area he was average at.

I am fine leaving it at an "agree to disagree" state but I think a lot of it really will come down to whether Alex Austin, Isiah Bolden, Dial, or Kobe Minor can play in the slot.

 

[Huckleberry1]

We can go around in circles all day. To me this is like saying we should have not had James White out there in the passing game so we could make sure we could get him carries in the running game. White was an average rusher but a great pass catching back. Basically we neuter his superpower in order to get him more volume in an area he was average at.

I am fine leaving it at an "agree to disagree" state but I think a lot of it really will come down to whether Alex Austin, Isiah Bolden, Dial, or Kobe Minor can play in the slot.

Apples to oranges. Comparing a part time special teams role to duties integral to playing a position are two totally separate things.