What’s Left To Do?

[BTTA]

I thought the title of the OP is "what is there left to do?", not rehash another 50 pages about Campbell's wingspan and if it makes him likely or unlikely to be able to play LT.

Now I was NOT a big fan of the pick precisely because of the wingspan issue (not the arm length). Given what was available with the pick and the unknown offers we MIGHT have accepted to move down, the bottom-line Will Campbell was the guy we picked.

Here is what I DO know. Campbell was drafted to be a LT, not a G. I know that there were multiple guys who pored through every frame of 3 years of film on the guy and charted EVERY play, made note of who his opponent was, and determined the result.

Scouting is hard and you have to know what you are doing. 50 years ago I had a friend who worked part time for the Celtics as a scout. The very old amongst us would know his name, Rick Wietzman, who briefly played for the C's and won title under Bill Russell. Well anyway occasionally I would accompany him to games to scout players. Well to me, all the guys looked great to me. Fast, quick, skilled, etc Later, he would take the time to actually break down the players in detail and I began to start and see how they actually would fair at the next level and see their limitations. Scouting is a real skill and it takes time and experience to understand what to look for in players at the highest level of the game.

One thing that I found in my long coaching career I learned never to be surprised by how little I know and how much there was to learn. To be a good football coach, you HAVE to have a good-sized ego, but you also have a degree of humility and be able to admit there is ALWAYS something else to learn. In fact, that was part of the fun of it.

Campbell is here to be a LT and he will be given a season or two to prove it. So regardless of what you might thing about his wingspan the kid is going to be a LT for the near future. So granted he has a physical limitation to overcome, but he also has a lot of EXCEPTIONAL athletic ability to help him do that.

Rambling again. Let me get back on point. The "wingspan" part of this discussion is OVER and really shouldn't be mentioned again until the OL is in full pads and hitting some time in July. You know. The time when we can ACTUALLY see if the kid can block anyone.

NOW the time is to see who is still out there to fill in the roster so the best possible 90 players are there to start camp. There are still so excellent "names" out there at every position that will obviously improve the overall quality of the roster at every position. Want to improve the edge rush. Matt Judon, ZSmith, SBarrett, JClowney, and others are all out there. JSimmons is still out there if FS is an issue, So is DJ Humphries if you want to move Campbell to G right away.

You also have to balance your overall team building to who you bring in. Contending teams tend to bring in older players for a making a run THIS season or 2. Building teams tend to go more for younger players. Guys who are not playing to their athletic potential and hope a change of scenery and system will bring out the promise they have yet to fulfill. Guys like OLB KCaission fit that profile and there are others like him still out there.

THAT is what we should be discussing with OP like this, not regurgitating Will Campbell's arm length and rehashing personal issues with Eliot Wolf.

 

[BTTA]

What's remarkable in all this is how the hundreds of years of experience on the Pats' scouting and coaching staff somehow missed the importance of arm length and wingspan for OT's, and that this will cause the kid to be mediocre at best. How is this possible?

 

[TomPatriot]

What's remarkable in all this is how the hundreds of years of experience on the Pats' scouting and coaching staff somehow missed the importance of arm length and wingspan for OT's, and that this will cause the kid to be mediocre at best. How is this possible?

It’s not. Nobody missed it. It’s one of a dozen factors and Campbell does most of the others really well.

 

[Family]

I am OK with the Campbell pick, but there is reason for concern. Drafting a guard with the #4 pick overall is not a great use of draft capital. It is like your support of Wolf, dying on a hill for no reason.

You know I am not a Wolf fan, but they did not draft a guard with the #4 pick. They could haven chose any tackle coming out of college this year, and thought he was it, and Campbell was the consensus choice too.

Yes they could have traded down, and perhaps messed that up too, like last year. Wolf (if it was even his decision) played it the safest, which is exactly what I think you should do with the #4 OA pick.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I thought the title of the OP is "what is there left to do?", not rehash another 50 pages about Campbell's wingspan and if it makes him likely or unlikely to be able to play LT.

Now I was NOT a big fan of the pick precisely because of the wingspan issue (not the arm length). Given what was available with the pick and the unknown offers we MIGHT have accepted to move down, the bottom-line Will Campbell was the guy we picked.

Here is what I DO know. Campbell was drafted to be a LT, not a G. I know that there were multiple guys who pored through every frame of 3 years of film on the guy and charted EVERY play, made note of who his opponent was, and determined the result.

Scouting is hard and you have to know what you are doing. 50 years ago I had a friend who worked part time for the Celtics as a scout. The very old amongst us would know his name, Rick Wietzman, who briefly played for the C's and won title under Bill Russell. Well anyway occasionally I would accompany him to games to scout players. Well to me, all the guys looked great to me. Fast, quick, skilled, etc Later, he would take the time to actually break down the players in detail and I began to start and see how they actually would fair at the next level and see their limitations. Scouting is a real skill and it takes time and experience to understand what to look for in players at the highest level of the game.

One thing that I found in my long coaching career I learned never to be surprised by how little I know and how much there was to learn. To be a good football coach, you HAVE to have a good-sized ego, but you also have a degree of humility and be able to admit there is ALWAYS something else to learn. In fact, that was part of the fun of it.

Campbell is here to be a LT and he will be given a season or two to prove it. So regardless of what you might thing about his wingspan the kid is going to be a LT for the near future. So granted he has a physical limitation to overcome, but he also has a lot of EXCEPTIONAL athletic ability to help him do that.

Rambling again. Let me get back on point. The "wingspan" part of this discussion is OVER and really shouldn't be mentioned again until the OL is in full pads and hitting some time in July. You know. The time when we can ACTUALLY see if the kid can block anyone.

NOW the time is to see who is still out there to fill in the roster so the best possible 90 players are there to start camp. There are still so excellent "names" out there at every position that will obviously improve the overall quality of the roster at every position. Want to improve the edge rush. Matt Judon, ZSmith, SBarrett, JClowney, and others are all out there. JSimmons is still out there if FS is an issue, So is DJ Humphries if you want to move Campbell to G right away.

You also have to balance your overall team building to who you bring in. Contending teams tend to bring in older players for a making a run THIS season or 2. Building teams tend to go more for younger players. Guys who are not playing to their athletic potential and hope a change of scenery and system will bring out the promise they have yet to fulfill. Guys like OLB KCaission fit that profile and there are others like him still out there.

THAT is what we should be discussing with OP like this, not regurgitating Will Campbell's arm length and rehashing personal issues with Eliot Wolf.

Ok Ken , but can we at least discuss sand in the pants? I have a big concern with Campbell’s sand in the pants, which only measured 52 lbs at the combine, but 54 at his pro day. And not a single tackle with less than 55 lbs sand in the pants has been at left tackle in the NFL’s 250 year history. Orlando Pace set the record at an astounding 105 lbs sand in the pants, but he was an outlier, and that’s a really big ass. Anyways, I don’t have much time, but I really think Campbell needs to live on steak bombs and get his sand in the pants up to an acceptable 58 lbs SITP. Otherwise Verdarian Lowe, 63 lbs SITP will take his job. Thanks for indulging me Ken, later…….

 

[The Gr8est]

Ok Ken , but can we at least discuss sand in the pants? I have a big concern with Campbell’s sand in the pants, which only measured 52 lbs at the combine, but 54 at his pro day. And not a single tackle with less than 55 lbs sand in the pants has been at left tackle in the NFL’s 250 year history. Orlando Pace set the record at an astounding 105 lbs sand in the pants, but he was an outlier, and that’s a really big ass. Anyways, I don’t have much time, but I really think Campbell needs to live on steak bombs and get his sand in the pants up to an acceptable 58 lbs SITP. Otherwise Verdarian Lowe, 63 lbs SITP will take his job. Thanks for indulging me Ken, later…….

In the interest of seeing if we can get this thread into competition with the BB Megathread, perhaps we can discuss which beaches have the best sand, and which beach and appropriate swimwear would best suit Campbell in his quest to maximize his SITP.

 

[Huckleberry1]

What's remarkable in all this is how the hundreds of years of experience on the Pats' scouting and coaching staff somehow missed the importance of arm length and wingspan for OT's, and that this will cause the kid to be mediocre at best. How is this possible?

Unfortunately it’s such a big deal that Campbell won’t beat out Lowe, whose RAS Score of 1.25 was better than 0.0% of the 2256 tackles tested between 1985 and today. But he is a very nice guy, and a good father.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

You know I am not a Wolf fan, but they did not draft a guard with the #4 pick. They could haven chose any tackle coming out of college this year, and thought he was it, and Campbell was the consensus choice too.

Yes they could have traded down, and perhaps messed that up too, like last year. Wolf (if it was even his decision) played it the safest, which is exactly what I think you should do with the #4 OA pick.

I agree that Campbell was the pick. I am not disputing that.

I am only noting that Campbell is not a shoe in for a NFL LT. Measurement wise he is outside the normal boundaries. Athletic wise Campbell is off the charts. If you watch the tape Campbell did struggle significantly more with the college EDGE guys that are heading to the NFL. Where it all ends up no-one knows, but I think it is valid to point out Campbell's measurement short comings and performance dips against certain higher end opponents. No reason to gloss over Campbell's short comings. Let's hope Campbell is a 15 year LT. I love his attitude.

 

[Ring 6]

Excellent point. You can also ask the question, what are the wingspans of the rushers he will be going against?

It occurred to me that we never ask that question. We only seem to compare his 4-5 inch gap with other offensive tackles. Well Campbell won't be blocking any OT's this season, he will be blocking mostly fast guys that he will out-weigh by 50-70lbs. They will all be faster and quicker than him, but he will have advantages too. He will know the count. He will know what everyone else is doing too. He will know if the ball is coming out quickly. He will know where the QB "should" be. And more importantly, at least at some point in the season, he will know where all the rest of his OL brothers are going to be and where his help is coming from.

Remember this isn't rocket science here. He doesn't have to pancake the guy. He just has to give his QB 3-4 seconds and a clear lane to throw the ball. He doesn't have to win forever.

Also, here's where coaching comes in, especially with Josh. He's had a lot experience with limited LT's before. He knows how to help those guys get a hand from a TE or RB who just bumps a guy while going out on his route to add a second or 2 to the QB's time to throw. Josh is not going to leave the kid hanging, especially at the start of his career (or any of the other OLmen for that matter)

There are other things you can do to help your OL that we couldn't do last year much. Running a no huddle fast paced offense really hampers a D. No chance for subbing, rushers running out of gas, No chance of getting complex rushes set up.

We couldn't do that last year with a rookie QB and coaches, and an injury riddled OL with zero continuity happening. We might not be able to do it much, especially early in the season, given all the new faces on the roster and coaching rooms. But it IS a solid weapon for the offense to use ... when they are ready.

I’m not sure why wingspan is even a topic. The OL doesn’t block with his arms extended horizontally to his side and the pass rusher doesn’t rush that way either.
No one has ever been able to explain to me why wingspan matters and I have not seen any actual football plays where how far you can reach laterally made a difference, except for maybe a wr extending for a catch or a defensive guy out of position trying to swat at the ball when he is t close enough to tackle.
I’m open to someone showing me why it matters but as far as I can tell it’s just an urban legend.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree that Campbell was the pick. I am not disputing that.

I am only noting that Campbell is not a shoe in for a NFL LT. Measurement wise he is outside the normal boundaries. Athletic wise Campbell is off the charts. If you watch the tape Campbell did struggle significantly more with the college EDGE guys that are heading to the NFL. Where it all ends up no-one knows, but I think it is valid to point out Campbell's measurement short comings and performance dips against certain higher end opponents. No reason to gloss over Campbell's short comings. Let's hope Campbell is a 15 year LT. I love his attitude.

A LT is determined by his skill set now how close he can get his fingertips to a guy who blew past him because he has no athleticism but long arms.

Campbell didn’t “struggle” against anyone. If you are saying the best players were more successful against him than the worst that’s a water is wet level analysis.

Please explain to me when wingspan comes into play in blocking a pass rusher.

 

[Family]

I agree that Campbell was the pick. I am not disputing that.

I am only noting that Campbell is not a shoe in for a NFL LT. Measurement wise he is outside the normal boundaries. Athletic wise Campbell is off the charts. If you watch the tape Campbell did struggle significantly more with the college EDGE guys that are heading to the NFL. Where it all ends up no-one knows, but I think it is valid to point out Campbell's measurement short comings and performance dips against certain higher end opponents. No reason to gloss over Campbell's short comings. Let's hope Campbell is a 15 year LT. I love his attitude.

My problem was with "Drafting a guard with the #4 pick overall is not a great use of draft capital. It is like your support of Wolf, dying on a hill for no reason" when the pick was nearly as automatic as Maye.

Wolf did everything right. it either works or not.

 

[DaBruinz]

I just had a noti come across that MUSKETFIRE finally noticed that Jadeveon Clowney was released. My brother and I discussed this a few weeks back. I mentioned it here on Patsfans. Clowney still has juice left as he showed last year with a pitiful Panthers Defense.

The one area of the defense that could use improvement is the Edge. Clowney has played for Vrabel twice (Hou & Ten). Clowney would be an upgrade over someone like Chaisson or Jennings.

Another name that has been conspicuously absent from talk is DT Jeffrey Simmons. I really thought that the Pats would pull the trigger at the Draft. It still could be done Post June 1. Trading Simmons would save the Titans 8.3M this year, but free up their commitment in 2026 & 2027 ($25.4M & 28.3M) Now, Maybe the Pats decided against trading for him since Barmore has been cleared, but how devastating would the line be with SImmon, Barmore Williams and White all on the field.. LOL

 

[patfanken]

Ok Ken , but can we at least discuss sand in the pants? I have a big concern with Campbell’s sand in the pants, which only measured 52 lbs at the combine, but 54 at his pro day. And not a single tackle with less than 55 lbs sand in the pants has been at left tackle in the NFL’s 250 year history. Orlando Pace set the record at an astounding 105 lbs sand in the pants, but he was an outlier, and that’s a really big ass. Anyways, I don’t have much time, but I really think Campbell needs to live on steak bombs and get his sand in the pants up to an acceptable 58 lbs SITP. Otherwise Verdarian Lowe, 63 lbs SITP will take his job. Thanks for indulging me Ken, later…….

Indulge me, Ro. What the **** is "sand in the pants" and how do you measure it. Sorry but until this moment, I have never heard of the "sand in the pants measurement let alone having it for others.

BTW- I need this explanation sooner rather than later. Enquiring minds need to know about SITP. Forget about Jordan/Bill. Forget about wingspan, or the latest stats on how many drops Maye put on the bathroom floor shaking off his last urination.

"Sand in the pants" - Then next 100 page discussion.

 

[DaBruinz]

Ok Ken , but can we at least discuss sand in the pants? I have a big concern with Campbell’s sand in the pants, which only measured 52 lbs at the combine, but 54 at his pro day. And not a single tackle with less than 55 lbs sand in the pants has been at left tackle in the NFL’s 250 year history. Orlando Pace set the record at an astounding 105 lbs sand in the pants, but he was an outlier, and that’s a really big ass. Anyways, I don’t have much time, but I really think Campbell needs to live on steak bombs and get his sand in the pants up to an acceptable 58 lbs SITP. Otherwise Verdarian Lowe, 63 lbs SITP will take his job. Thanks for indulging me Ken, later…….

Huck - You're a damn good poster. But when you start exaggerating with statements like "in the NFL's 250 year history", someone has to call you on your BS. The NFL is barely over 100 years old having been founded in 1920. And I can guarantee you that some of the first LTs did not have 55lbs SITP..

Next, go ahead and show everyone how this wonderful measurement is done. Make sure you include how they figure out the player's bone density and muscle density. Because each person's is different.

Lastly, go ahead and post all these SITP measurements from previous years.

The only time I've heard SITP mentioned is as it refers to a players ability to hold blocks. There was never measurable physical attribute.

 

[The Gr8est]

Huck - You're a damn good poster. But when you start exaggerating with statements like "in the NFL's 250 year history", someone has to call you on your BS. The NFL is barely over 100 years old having been founded in 1920. And I can guarantee you that some of the first LTs did not have 55lbs SITP..

Next, go ahead and show everyone how this wonderful measurement is done. Make sure you include how they figure out the player's bone density and muscle density. Because each person's is different.

Lastly, go ahead and post all these SITP measurements from previous years.

The only time I've heard SITP mentioned is as it refers to a players ability to hold blocks. There was never measurable physical attribute.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Indulge me, Ro. What the **** is "sand in the pants" and how do you measure it. Sorry but until this moment, I have never heard of the "sand in the pants measurement let alone having it for others.

BTW- I need this explanation sooner rather than later. Enquiring minds need to know about SITP. Forget about Jordan/Bill. Forget about wingspan, or the latest stats on how many drops Maye put on the bathroom floor shaking off his last urination.

"Sand in the pants" - Then next 100 page discussion.

lol. Ken, “ sand in the pants is an old cliche” draftniks use to describe prospects who either do or don’t have a big ass/ legs. I was joking about it.

It’s also been used to describe either having or not having any balls.

Basically Ken I think the Draft leads to paralysis by analysis, and people get so caught up in metrics, both good and bad, that whether the guy can play or not gets lost in the shuffle.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

My problem was with "Drafting a guard with the #4 pick overall is not a great use of draft capital. It is like your support of Wolf, dying on a hill for no reason" when the pick was nearly as automatic as Maye.

Wolf did everything right. it either works or not.

I agree. My point is that Huck was trying to shut down a discussion about the potential downside of the pick. I think there are reasonable downsides that can be discussed. It might be the right pick, but only because that was the only choice this year. There is no reason to ignore or shut down discussion about the possible risks in making the obvious pick. #4 is hopefully a bullet proof pick - in 2025 that was not the case.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

A LT is determined by his skill set now how close he can get his fingertips to a guy who blew past him because he has no athleticism but long arms.

Campbell didn’t “struggle” against anyone. If you are saying the best players were more successful against him than the worst that’s a water is wet level analysis.

Please explain to me when wingspan comes into play in blocking a pass rusher.

I can not help you. My apologies.

 

[Ring 6]

I can not help you. My apologies.

I didn’t think so. Many people complain about wingspan as if it’s a critical thing, yet none have been able to explain why and how it manifests in the football field.

 

[DaBruinz]

I agree. My point is that Huck was trying to shut down a discussion about the potential downside of the pick. I think there are reasonable downsides that can be discussed. It might be the right pick, but only because that was the only choice this year. There is no reason to ignore or shut down discussion about the possible risks in making the obvious pick. #4 is hopefully a bullet proof pick - in 2025 that was not the case.

there are potential risks with every draft pick.. Each year. Every year. The number of top 5 picks that were "Guaranteed ALL-PRO" who have bombed could fill up one of the Pats 737s. So, spare us the BS about "reasonable downsides". It's BS speculation on the part of people like yourself and shows how ridiculous you are.