Mike Vrabel reveals whether Patriots will run a 3-4 or 4-3 defense

[Real fan 02]

Todays Defenses are all about pass rush.

The Eagles just put on a clinic totally destroying the Chiefs - though KC was crippled at OL. The Philly DL said that they prided themselves on not adding additional pass rushers and stuck with 4 guys getting the job done. The Pats will no doubt mix it up and add a pass rusher or 2 on occasion.

Who doesn't love a Safety blitz?

Spot on! Is exactly why I'm saying if you cannot cover, and can't rush the passer then you end up being a zone, vanilla defense, and then the offense dictates. Vrabel's not having that.. this team is a one-gap, game plan aggressive defense designed to stop the run and pressure the QB.

 

[Triumph]

Spot on! Is exactly why I'm saying if you cannot cover, and can't rush the passer then you end up being a zone, vanilla defense, and then the offense dictates. Vrabel's not having that.. this team is a one-gap, game plan aggressive defense designed to stop the run and pressure the QB.

BB and the 3 - 4 stymied the NFL for years. BB changed and tweaked the defense every season. If you dont youre predictable.

Now, Vrabel is implementing a new defense of his own. It will be a work in progress, but the Pats are going to be better.

 

[Love The Drake]

BB and the 3 - 4 stymied the NFL for years. BB changed and tweaked the defense every season. If you dont youre predictable.

Now, Vrabel is implementing a new defense of his own. It will be a work in progress, but the Pats are going to be better.

Having two great cover corners and if we can get Dugger who got the big deal back sprinkled with Peppers coked up intensity and Mapu, and the rook I think that’s the safety depth chart unless Dugger is traded due to someone else showing capable . So secondary is pretty set.

Linebackers we haven’t had this kind of depth and leadership since Vrabs l, Bru, and Mcg, expect us to be sound there.

D like Milton is a beast, White should thrive under Vrabs and Barmore if he is full tilt,

This is a top 10 defense at worst barring a major injury or setback.

I trust Vrab will have a big hand on drawing up schemes.

 

[Real fan 02]

BB and the 3 - 4 stymied the NFL for years. BB changed and tweaked the defense every season. If you dont youre predictable.

Now, Vrabel is implementing a new defense of his own. It will be a work in progress, but the Pats are going to be better.

Agreed. What BB had for the duration of the first dynasty was that bad man.. ty fnnn law.. having a lock down CB allows a defense to play man and be multiple.. remember when we didn't have a lock down CB we played soft zone and gave up 400 yards passing each week.. under the likes of Wheatley and wilhite at CB.. Vrabel's defense is pretty much what be ran in Tennessee.. we have better personnel then he had in Tennessee though.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

As I mentioned to ring 6.. a few things i'm looking at.. is Vrabel’s never had an all pro at CB like he has in gonzo, I feel like the overall scheme is a one-gap. But will also be a game plan defense. I can see 3 CB formations and 3 safety formations as well. This defense is so multiple they can match up with any offense.

Vrabel's never had a CB like Gonzo or a QB like Maye. He must be a happy man.

 

[Real fan 02]

Vrabel's never had a CB like Gonzo or a QB like Maye. He must be a happy man.

One, most definitely! It's impressive what vrabel was able to get out if Ryan tannehhill... also.. Henry wasn't the back he became until vrabel got there. Rham is another huge benefit from Vrabel..

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Agreed. What BB had for the duration of the first dynasty was that bad man.. ty fnnn law.. having a lock down CB allows a defense to play man and be multiple.. remember when we didn't have a lock down CB we played soft zone and gave up 400 yards passing each week.. under the likes of Wheatley and wilhite at CB.. Vrabel's defense is pretty much what be ran in Tennessee.. we have better personnel then he had in Tennessee though.

He had Ty Fnnn Law AND Stephone Fnnn Gilmore. STUDS.

 

[Real fan 02]

He had Ty Fnnn Law AND Stephone Fnnn Gilmore. STUDS.

And it's crazy to say.. that gonzo is more athletic than both of them! And bigger! If he stays healthy guys going to be a perennial all pro just like them!

 

[Real fan 02]

Having two great cover corners and if we can get Dugger who got the big deal back sprinkled with Peppers coked up intensity and Mapu, and the rook I think that’s the safety depth chart unless Dugger is traded due to someone else showing capable . So secondary is pretty set.

Linebackers we haven’t had this kind of depth and leadership since Vrabs l, Bru, and Mcg, expect us to be sound there.

D like Milton is a beast, White should thrive under Vrabs and Barmore if he is full tilt,

This is a top 10 defense at worst barring a major injury or setback.

I trust Vrab will have a big hand on drawing up schemes.

Spillane speaking of LBs he's a heat seeking missile.. I admit I didn't see us signing him.. but I went and looked up some YouTube on him the guy is a phenomenal player.. he hits like Bruschi in his prime.

 

[patfanken]

Defenses create sacks and pressures in 2 ways. By individual effort and by scheme. The very good 2023 defense (top 10 IIRC) did an excellent job creating a good pass rush mostly through scheming well. They ran a lot of twists and often zone blitzed.

Zone blitzing is an especially effective method of providing pressure through scheme. For the older amongst you, Rex Ryan and his teams were especially good at it. Essentially what happens is you create patterns on one side of the field that ends up having blockers defending against only token resistance or blocking guys who are dropping, while you overload the other side creating 3 on 2 scenarios.

I see Vrabel liking this kind of strategy, and when you have 2 or 3 strong man DB's making separation difficult and consistently forcing the QB to make perfect throws to create completions, then THAT's when you end up getting the TO's we were so lacking last season.

There is no question in my mind that the Pats have the starters to put a top 10 defense (or better) on the field this season. The DL starters are among the best in the league. The LB's are improved, and the DB's again among the best in the league. The rub is DEPTH. Will the Pats develop the quality depth behind those starters to sustain the long march of adversity that is an NFL season. THAT my friends will be the big question and for that to happen, that back half of this year's draft will have to come through BIG time.

Also, this is when those "unexciting" little noticed signings become very important when the actual season comes around. I recall back in the mid 2000's we signed 2 guys (whose names escape me) with little or no fanfare just before TC, and those guys ended up producing 20 sacks between them. So you never know.

 

[Love The Drake]

Y

Defenses create sacks and pressures in 2 ways. By individual effort and by scheme. The very good 2023 defense (top 10 IIRC) did an excellent job creating a good pass rush mostly through scheming well. They ran a lot of twists and often zone blitzed.

Zone blitzing is an especially effective method of providing pressure through scheme. For the older amongst you, Rex Ryan and his teams were especially good at it. Essentially what happens is you create patterns on one side of the field that ends up having blockers defending against only token resistance or blocking guys who are dropping, while you overload the other side creating 3 on 2 scenarios.

I see Vrabel liking this kind of strategy, and when you have 2 or 3 strong man DB's making separation difficult and consistently forcing the QB to make perfect throws to create completions, then THAT's when you end up getting the TO's we were so lacking last season.

There is no question in my mind that the Pats have the starters to put a top 10 defense (or better) on the field this season. The DL starters are among the best in the league. The LB's are improved, and the DB's again among the best in the league. The rub is DEPTH. Will the Pats develop the quality depth behind those starters to sustain the long march of adversity that is an NFL season. THAT my friends will be the big question and for that to happen, that back half of this year's draft will have to come through BIG time.

Also, this is when those "unexciting" little noticed signings become very important when the actual season comes around. I recall back in the mid 2000's we signed 2 guys (whose names escape me) with little or no fanfare just before TC, and those guys ended up producing 20 sacks between them. So you never know.

Tully banta cain, Andre Cater?

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Y

Tully banta cain, Andre Cater?

I think it was Carter and Mark Anderson in 2011. Now it was a late free agency period because of the lockout, but still were late signings and definitely without fanfare.

 

[Wozzy]

3/4 base is smarter, provides more flexibility… it’s a thinking man’s defense.

Vrabel has always run this system and played in this system as a player. He wouldn’t even have been a natural system fit as a player in an old school 4/3 so he owes a lot to it.

Casual fans confuse a 3/4 Over formation with a 4/3 because it appears like there are simply 4 players on the line of scrimmage. What they miss is one of these players is a traditional 3/4 DE like Keion White or Chandler Jones, and the player on the other side is an OLB like Landry or Vrabel. Any of these end players are available to drop in coverage or move around the formation.

 

[Kasmir]

When Fairbanks introduced the Bullough 3-4 (Oklahoma 5-2 with stand up defensive ends), Ray Hamilton was playing NT at 250lbs, which was light for 2-gapping even back then (Hannah was 265 and Lenkaitis was 250 for instance).

I remembered -- and Grok verified -- Hamilton saying that he was "moving on every snap" and almost always played 1-gap technique in coordination with Nelson and Hunt particularly. It was a hybrid defense because Julius Adams and Dave Rowe were usually 2-gapping in the base defense.

So in the modern re-introduction of the 3-4 by Fairbanks/Bullough in 1973 it was a hybrid.

The (old) Houston Oilers introduced their own 3-4 in 1974, because they that year signed 265lb all-pro Curly Culp at NT and he enabled successful 2-gap technique because of his size and strength.

Update: I had always believed that because the Dolphins/Arnsparger "53" 3-DL defense was not a base defense, their base defense was a 4--3. But Grok says that the base defense for their early Superbowl's was a 2-gap 3-4 with Bob Heinz at NT and Manny Fernandez (265 lbs) foreshadowing Seymour at DE. VernDenherder was the other DE at 245 lbs.

So Fairbanks and Bum Phillips are falsely credited with introducing the 3-4 -- according to Grok, which is a wonderful tool that is seldom wrong with prompts like this. Check it out.

A cautionary note about use of chatbots like Grok: they are incredibly knowledgeable and amazingly insightful, but similar to humans, they can make mistakes while still being confident. Look at this follow on session I just had with Grok:

Who were the starting linebackers for the, uh, inside linebackers for the New England Patriots in 1973?


In 1973, the starting inside linebackers for the Patriots were Steve Nelson and Sam Hunt. They were the core of that defense!


34 posts10 web pages


I think that's wrong. I think they were drafted in 1974.


No, Steve Nelson and Sam Hunt were already with the Patriots in 1973. Nelson was drafted in 1974, but he played his rookie year that same year. Hunt was actually with the team earlier, starting in '72. They were both starters by '73 for sure! Records can be tricky, but that’s what I’ve found on the web.


41 posts10 web pages


That's, that's illogical what you just said. You said that, that to answer my query that Steve Nelson was, uh, starting inside linebacker in 1973, but he was only drafted in 1974. That's impossible. That's illogical.


You’re right, I misspoke. Let me correct that. Steve Nelson was indeed drafted in 1974, so he couldn’t have been a starting inside linebacker in 1973. For 1973, the starting inside linebackers were likely Halvor Hagen and Doug Swift. They were the guys holding it down before Nelson and Hunt came on board! My bad on the mix-up.


45 posts10 web pages


Why did you make that mistake?


Honestly, I think I just got tangled in the timeline. Players like Nelson and Hunt were so iconic later that I mixed up when they actually started. It’s easy to do with old football stats—sometimes the years blur together!

Update: I pushed Grok further, and it conceded that the Fairbanks 3-4 was introduced in 1974, not 1973 which foots with my recollection.

As for the surprising (to me) claim that the 3-4 was the base defense for the Dolphins in their first Superbowls, it continues to claim that even after I requested deeper analysis, claiming in particular there was a Sports Illustrated article in 2010 -- still available in their archive -- saying specifically that the Dolphins/Arnsparger used the 3-4 as their base defense on first downs, including in the Washington Superbowl. Grok claims other websites support this.

 

[Huckleberry1]

A cautionary note about use of chatbots like Grok: they are incredibly knowledgeable and amazingly insightful, but similar to humans, they can make mistakes while still being confident. Look at this follow on session I just had with Grok:

And this is why I rely on infallible source for my factual information. If I can imagine it, then it’s the truth. E.G. John Hannah’s arm length and wingspan. Absolute truth.

 

[Kasmir]

And this is why I rely on infallible source for my factual information. If I can imagine it, then it’s the truth. E.G. John Hannah’s arm length and wingspan. Absolute truth.

No source is infallible. LLM chatbots are incredibly useful but they can make mistakes.

 

[signbabybrady]

And this is why I rely on infallible source for my factual information. If I can imagine it, then it’s the truth. E.G. John Hannah’s arm length and wingspan. Absolute truth.

 

[Ring 6]

Good analysis.. gonzo factors in here because he's the all pro that's never coming off the field and will always take whatever side of field away.. so therefore you can be more multiple and exotic.. Epps IMO projects more as a camp possibly STs player.. Woodson was drafted to be a contributing player. Spillane and landry are 3 down players they aren't coming off the field IMO

Everyone is drafted to play, most 4th rounders don’t as rookies. Epps is an NFL starting S who played 99% of the snaps in Philly in 2022 on a SB team that was 2nd in points, 8th in yards and the number 1 pass D in the NFL, then played 91% in LV in 23 and 90% before being injured last year.

Gonzales being a good corner is great but I don’t see how that affects Vrabels preference to use a nickel corner instead of safety

 

[Kasmir]

Which is actually true. Its the difference between misinformation (a mistake) and disinformation (a lie).

 

[Ring 6]

A cautionary note about use of chatbots like Grok: they are incredibly knowledgeable and amazingly insightful, but similar to humans, they can make mistakes while still being confident. Look at this follow on session I just had with Grok:



Update: I pushed Grok further, and it conceded that the Fairbanks 3-4 was introduced in 1974, not 1973 which foots with my recollection.

As for the surprising (to me) claim that the 3-4 was the base defense for the Dolphins in their first Superbowls, it continues to claim that even after I requested deeper analysis, claiming in particular there was a Sports Illustrated article in 2010 -- still available in their archive -- saying specifically that the Dolphins/Arnsparger used the 3-4 as their base defense on first downs, including in the Washington Superbowl. Grok claims other websites support this.

Grok actually disagrees with that if you ask the right question. They played a base 4-3 and Matheson came in for the 53 sub package, which was the basis of nickel.

https://x.com/i/grok/share/spafIAvtYetrIz2qS2Yaovqs5