Can the Pats get good again in a hurry? Just a thought. (Paging Mr Toys for trade opinion.)

[Mike the Brit]

So the good news is: the Patriots have a quarterback and they also have the most cap space in the league.

The bad news is that, apart from the quarterback and one cornerback, the rest of the roster is questionable to downright bad. The coaching last season was terrible, it's true, so it's possible that some of the players will come good again, but I can't think that any of them except Gonzalez will want last season on their highlight reels.

And the further bad news is that the cap is ballooning, so a lot of teams have a lot of cap space. That means that, if a team is letting a player hit free agency, then most likely they have a good reason not to re-sign him: they can see that he is finished; he isn't amenable to coaching or whatever. If teams really want a player (Higgins, Tee) they will find a way.

But ...

There are some teams that are really up against the cap. The most obvious are the Saints and the Browns. The Saints have a weird history of pushing money into the future. Maybe they have a way of making that work indefinitely. But the Browns are in a terrible situation for one reason: Deshaun Watson.

What it would take for the Browns to finally get rid of Deshaun Watson

Immediately signing Deshaun Watson to one of the most significant contracts in NFL history always seemed like it would be a massive mistake for the Browns. Today, there's no doubt about it. Watson has reportedly ruptured his Achilles agai

ftw.usatoday.com

Basically, the Browns are screwed unless they can find another team to trade Watson to. But Watson is the trifecta: he played terribly last season; he's got long-term injuries; and he's a toxic human being. So what would it take to find a trade partner?

(1) Another team with a huge amount of cap space

(2) A huge incentive

Let's say the Browns traded Watson to the Pats (designating it as post-June 1 to try to limit the expense). What would the Pats want in return?

(1) First round picks. Not just this year but next.

(2) Maybe Myles Garrett.

(3) A left tackle. Is Dawaan Jones any good?

OK, that looks like a lot, but the Browns are the ones who are desperate, not the Patriots. And maybe they could sweeten things a little bit by sending them Joe Milton. Whether he is going to be a starting NFL quarterback or not, he's definitely better than anything the Browns have on their roster at present.

Just a thought.

 

[PatriotSpy]

Our division isn't scary. You know what division is scary? AFC West. North is tough too. Thank God we're not in either of those divisions.

So to answer your question, can we get good in a hurry? Depends on what you mean by good. Win the division good? Sure. Go to the Super Bowl good, I don't think so. That'll take a little while longer.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

In this league you’re never far from a playoff run. 4 years in a row now teams have gone from bottom 5 to winning a playoff game. Every year it seems like there’s about 10-12 teams that are total ass so if you do well enough in draft/fa and are well coached you really just need to seperate from this pack and you at least have a shot at playoffs.

If you’re talking about super bowl contender good that’s most likely a good 2-3 years away even in the best case scenario.

 

[imahobgoblin]

So the good news is: the Patriots have a quarterback and they also have the most cap space in the league.

The bad news is that, apart from the quarterback and one cornerback, the rest of the roster is questionable to downright bad. The coaching last season was terrible, it's true, so it's possible that some of the players will come good again, but I can't think that any of them except Gonzalez will want last season on their highlight reels.

And the further bad news is that the cap is ballooning, so a lot of teams have a lot of cap space. That means that, if a team is letting a player hit free agency, then most likely they have a good reason not to re-sign him: they can see that he is finished; he isn't amenable to coaching or whatever. If teams really want a player (Higgins, Tee) they will find a way.

But ...

There are some teams that are really up against the cap. The most obvious are the Saints and the Browns. The Saints have a weird history of pushing money into the future. Maybe they have a way of making that work indefinitely. But the Browns are in a terrible situation for one reason: Deshaun Watson.

What it would take for the Browns to finally get rid of Deshaun Watson

Immediately signing Deshaun Watson to one of the most significant contracts in NFL history always seemed like it would be a massive mistake for the Browns. Today, there's no doubt about it. Watson has reportedly ruptured his Achilles agai

ftw.usatoday.com

Basically, the Browns are screwed unless they can find another team to trade Watson to. But Watson is the trifecta: he played terribly last season; he's got long-term injuries; and he's a toxic human being. So what would it take to find a trade partner?

(1) Another team with a huge amount of cap space

(2) A huge incentive

Let's say the Browns traded Watson to the Pats (designating it as post-June 1 to try to limit the expense). What would the Pats want in return?

(1) First round picks. Not just this year but next.

(2) Maybe Myles Garrett.

(3) A left tackle. Is Dawaan Jones any good?

OK, that looks like a lot, but the Browns are the ones who are desperate, not the Patriots. And maybe they could sweeten things a little bit by sending them Joe Milton. Whether he is going to be a starting NFL quarterback or not, he's definitely better than anything the Browns have on their roster at present.

Just a thought.

Wasn't this pipe dream mentioned on 98.5 Sports Hub the other day? Watson's numbers are just too massive to do it. We need to build around Drake now, and not let this team stink for two more years when he is developing. It would hold him back. Someone came up with this idea from their mom's basement. Its just not happening.

 

[Vindicate]

I think, if you look at the draft, and free agency, the Patriots could turn a weak DL into a powerhouse "overnight", so-to-speak. A secondary benefit is... the secondary! I think you can fix a lot of defensive woes this offseason if cards are played right. This is based off of some surface level understanding, so I could be wrong.

Offense has too many parts and all starts with the hardest position to land starters in from the draft (as of the past decade or so): OL.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Wasn't this pipe dream mentioned on 98.5 Sports Hub the other day?

I'm not sad enough to listen to 98.5.

Watson's numbers are just too massive to do it. We need to build around Drake now, and not let this team stink for two more years when he is developing. It would hold him back. Someone came up with this idea from their mom's basement. Its just not happening.

I'm not sure what the actual numbers are -- I think $46m -- but the answer is: the more of the salary the Pats take, the more they ask back from the Browns.

I don't see how it could hold Drake back if the Pats had extra first-round picks.

Say what you like, I've been out of mom's basement for a few years now.

 

[Hyped]

How easy would it be to get rid of Watson in 2026?

I'd be OK with it if it didn't cripple our cap situation in 2026....

 

[imahobgoblin]

I'm not sad enough to listen to 98.5.



I'm not sure what the actual numbers are -- I think $46m -- but the answer is: the more of the salary the Pats take, the more they ask back from the Browns.

I don't see how it could hold Drake back if the Pats had extra first-round picks.

Say what you like, I've been out of mom's basement for a few years now.

His Cleveland salary is $73 million, the base is $46,000,000 and bonus is $26,732,678, but the dead cap is $172,329,356 pre June and $99,596,678 post June cuts. I have no clue on where to start in trying to figure out what Cleveland would be hit with in a trade, but it might be $119 million from what I am reading. Cleveland is $23,057,016 over the cap. So you are asking Cleveland to take a $119 million dead cap hit, add it to $23,057,016, and then somehow cut down and get to the salary cap??? How is that even possible? If the Cap is $279,200,000, Cleveland could only spend 137,200,000 on their entire roster. If they traded Garrett, they would take an additional $36 million in dead cap. So now they have to field a team with $100,000,000? Now, I am not sure that $119 million is perfectly accurate, but I venture its in the ballpark.

You are asking Robert Kraft, one of the cheapest owners in the NFL, to throw away $46 million. The reason it hurts Drake is because you just blew $46 million in cap space, and have not filled any holes on the roster yet. He needs players now, not in 2026 or 2027. Now! We need a LT, RT, multiple WR, a whole new D-line, and pass rushers. That is just the start. We have not had a Free Safety in years, and we have no starter on the opposite side of Gonzo.

I really don't know who comes up with these ludicrous scenarios. It would take less time to just look at salary cap numbers and figure out how preposterous this idea is than it does working through all the scenarios of what you think the Pats could get in compensation.

 

[Thelonious]

The positive side of the ledger is pretty sparse. We have a promising head coach, a promising qb, and a promising cb. That's about it. BFD.

The team has over the past several years made, aside from the above - probably - made no progress in rebuilding the team. The GM function awaits still an overall. There are still very few players on the roster, on either side of the ball, who would find a place on any worthwhile team's roster, The quality of the owner's judgment re what is best for the team is very questionable, with far too much weight given to whether a candidate pleases the owner on a personal level. It's a lousy free agent group and a weak draft, The jackass former HC deprived us of the first pick in that lousy draft. And so on.

I don't see any way it takes less than two years to rebuild this **** show, and I would not be surprised if it were more like three or more. Given this, i would have the following general priorities: 1) Rebuild from inside out: O-line, defensive front 7, and so on. This is not a time to be snatching at shiny baubles, particularity "proven" players at "skill positions" who will be retired players by the time the team can actually make use of them, 2) Begin the transition to the next generation of ownership, 3) Conduct a legitimate remaking of the GM function: very little meaningful work has been done on that front. Evidently the owner finds Wolf, who has now failed under two head coaches, a very pleasant fellow indeed, 3) We are going to have to be patient, because, given the dismal progress made over the past five years or more, there is far more than a year's worth of work to be done.

 

[lancerman]

There's no reasonable way to look at this team and think they will fix all or even "most" of the problems in one season. You could replace all our offensive lineman and all of our WR's with league average and it would be an across the board improvement. That's not even saying "playmakers" it's saying average. Defensively we don't know if Barmore comes back, so you could almost say that about our entire defensive front. I'm also no longer convinced players like Stevenson are longterm solutions anymore at RB. Even kicker is a question.

There's just too much.

The question shifts to what does "get good again" mean to you? Could we do enough to win 2-3 more games and be middle of the pack and be on the outside looking in of the playoffs instead of firmly out? Sure. Could we be a nine win team that falls ass backwards into a one and done appearance? I guess. Are we going to be anywhere near winning the division and having any real shot at doing something that matters? That's at least 2-3 years.

Also this Watson situation just isn't real. You are basically telling Maye that we are punting on this year and Cleveland can't sell to their fanbase that they are punting longterm on the draft and potentially getting an impact player or QB to fix the shortterm Watson mistake.

 

[Mike the Brit]

His Cleveland salary is $73 million, the base is $46,000,000 and bonus is $26,732,678, but the dead cap is $172,329,356 pre June and $99,596,678 post June cuts. I have no clue on where to start in trying to figure out what Cleveland would be hit with in a trade, but it might be $119 million from what I am reading. Cleveland is $23,057,016 over the cap. So you are asking Cleveland to take a $119 million dead cap hit, add it to $23,057,016, and then somehow cut down and get to the salary cap??? How is that even possible? If the Cap is $279,200,000, Cleveland could only spend 137,200,000 on their entire roster. If they traded Garrett, they would take an additional $36 million in dead cap. So now they have to field a team with $100,000,000? Now, I am not sure that $119 million is perfectly accurate, but I venture its in the ballpark.

You are asking Robert Kraft, one of the cheapest owners in the NFL, to throw away $46 million. The reason it hurts Drake is because you just blew $46 million in cap space, and have not filled any holes on the roster yet. He needs players now, not in 2026 or 2027. Now! We need a LT, RT, multiple WR, a whole new D-line, and pass rushers. That is just the start. We have not had a Free Safety in years, and we have no starter on the opposite side of Gonzo.

I really don't know who comes up with these ludicrous scenarios. It would take less time to just look at salary cap numbers and figure out how preposterous this idea is than it does working through all the scenarios of what you think the Pats could get in compensation.

I did look at the cap numbers on Overthecap, though I'll freely admit that I am not at all sure how it works.



If Cleveland save $46 million then it looks like a big win for them. If the cost to New England is $46m then, yes, that is a big hit and they would have to make a very tough deal to justify it. But extra first round picks this and next year plus a serviceable LT and Myles Garrett would go some way. Maybe it's not enough.

But I don't think it's ridiculous.

 

[Ross12]

Theoretically you could trade Watson + #2 overall + their 1st next year in exchange for a 7th round pick, then immediately cut Watson once you acquire him. You’re effectively eating salary on Cleveland’s behalf in exchange for high picks. I don’t think it would happen but it’s possible.

 

[Mike the Brit]

Theoretically you could trade Watson + #2 overall + their 1st next year in exchange for a 7th round pick, then immediately cut Watson once you acquire him. You’re effectively eating salary on Cleveland’s behalf in exchange for high picks. I don’t think it would happen but it’s possible.

Exactly. My question is: how much would the Pats have to extract from Cleveland to make it worth their while?

I don't know how things look from the Cleveland point of view, but from what I can see of the numbers they must be desperate. What alternative do they have?

Also: what other team would be in a position to do such a deal? The Raiders have $88m and the Cardinals $74, but any other teams would have trouble accommodating a $46m hit.

If I'm right, the Pats would be negotiating from strength.

 

[Real fan 02]

In this league you’re never far from a playoff run. 4 years in a row now teams have gone from bottom 5 to winning a playoff game. Every year it seems like there’s about 10-12 teams that are total ass so if you do well enough in draft/fa and are well coached you really just need to seperate from this pack and you at least have a shot at playoffs.

If you’re talking about super bowl contender good that’s most likely a good 2-3 years away even in the best case scenario.

I've said it myself.. competence goes a long way. We were inept on offense and defense last year. Simply getting the coaching staff and some players that actually care and will put forth effort and pride makes a huge difference.

 

[Real fan 02]

Exactly. My question is: how much would the Pats have to extract from Cleveland to make it worth their while?

I don't know how things look from the Cleveland point of view, but from what I can see of the numbers they must be desperate. What alternative do they have?

Also: what other team would be in a position to do such a deal? The Raiders have $88m and the Cardinals $74, but any other teams would have trouble accommodating a $46m hit.

If I'm right, the Pats would be negotiating from strength.

I think if there's no local massage spa's around will be a deal breaker..

 

[imahobgoblin]

I did look at the cap numbers on Overthecap, though I'll freely admit that I am not at all sure how it works.



If Cleveland save $46 million then it looks like a big win for them. If the cost to New England is $46m then, yes, that is a big hit and they would have to make a very tough deal to justify it. But extra first round picks this and next year plus a serviceable LT and Myles Garrett would go some way. Maybe it's not enough.

But I don't think it's ridiculous.

I have been looking for the numbers since yesterday and I finally found them. The Over The Cap graphic makes no sense and is wrong.

If Cleveland trades Watson pre 6/1, they take a $80,770,000 dead cap hit. If they do a post 6/1, they take a $26,935,000 hit in 2025, and $53,835,000 in 2026. The $46,000,000 base comes over to the Pats. I still contend Kraft is not throwing away $46 million.

If Cleveland trades Garrett pre 6/1, they take a $36,216,580 dead cap hit. If they do a post 6/1, they take a $14,758,895 hit is 2025, and $21,457,685 in 2026.

Let's assume they would do everything post 6/1. That is $41,693,895 in 2025 and $75,292,685 in 2026. They are currently $23,240,350 over the cap ($279,200,000). After trading Watson, they would be at $256,440,350. Adding Garrett's $14,758,895 would bring them to $226,922,560, but that is not the whole picture. After further research, the Browns also have $39,000,000 in dead cap space from other contracts. Your suggestion would bring their dead cap space to $80,693,895 in 2025 and only $75,292,685 in 2026. That freezes them from using that money!

Why would the Browns want to trade Watson and do this? Allegedly to free themselves of a bad contract so they can rebuild and move on from Watson. Ok, but you are suggesting they give us multiple high draft picks for a few years. They will be in contention for the first overall pick for the next few years no matter what they do. If they trade away those picks, they gut their only hope to fixing the organization. They are second to worst in cap management. New Orleans is the only team in a worse position.

I am telling you, this whole fantasy make zero sense. I know you did not come up with it. Its been floating out there from multiple sources this week. You got it from somewhere. Whoever cooked it up is ridiculous. The best thing for Cleveland to do is sit tight and cut Watson in 2 years rather than making more cap problems and losing first round draft picks. If they just keep Watson, they at least have those picks to hopefully compensate their idiocy.

 

[n1997y]

I think if there's no local massage spa's around will be a deal breaker..

Maybe Krafty Bob has some local connections that could give a hand convincing Watson to renegotiate?

 

[Mike the Brit]

I have been looking for the numbers since yesterday and I finally found them. The Over The Cap graphic makes no sense and is wrong.

If Cleveland trades Watson pre 6/1, they take a $80,770,000 dead cap hit. If they do a post 6/1, they take a $26,935,000 hit in 2025, and $53,835,000 in 2026. The $46,000,000 base comes over to the Pats. I still contend Kraft is not throwing away $46 million.

If Cleveland trades Garrett pre 6/1, they take a $36,216,580 dead cap hit. If they do a post 6/1, they take a $14,758,895 hit is 2025, and $21,457,685 in 2026.

Let's assume they would do everything post 6/1. That is $41,693,895 in 2025 and $75,292,685 in 2026. They are currently $23,240,350 over the cap ($279,200,000). After trading Watson, they would be at $256,440,350. Adding Garrett's $14,758,895 would bring them to $226,922,560, but that is not the whole picture. After further research, the Browns also have $39,000,000 in dead cap space from other contracts. Your suggestion would bring their dead cap space to $80,693,895 in 2025 and only $75,292,685 in 2026. That freezes them from using that money!

Why would the Browns want to trade Watson and do this? Allegedly to free themselves of a bad contract so they can rebuild and move on from Watson. Ok, but you are suggesting they give us multiple high draft picks for a few years. They will be in contention for the first overall pick for the next few years no matter what they do. If they trade away those picks, they gut their only hope to fixing the organization. They are second to worst in cap management. New Orleans is the only team in a worse position.

I am telling you, this whole fantasy make zero sense. I know you did not come up with it. Its been floating out there from multiple sources this week. You got it from somewhere. Whoever cooked it up is ridiculous. The best thing for Cleveland to do is sit tight and cut Watson in 2 years rather than making more cap problems and losing first round draft picks. If they just keep Watson, they at least have those picks to hopefully compensate their idiocy.

"The Over The Cap graphic makes no sense and is wrong". Maybe. That's all I had to go on.

"Why would the Browns want to trade Watson and do this?" Because their cap situation is so catastrophic, they'd have to gut the team to the point where they were paying everyone minimum salary?

"I am telling you, this whole fantasy make zero sense." Possibly. It's just a thought.

"I know you did not come up with it." I promise you that I did. If someone else came up with it independently before me, so be it.

 

[n1997y]

So the good news is: the Patriots have a quarterback and they also have the most cap space in the league.

The bad news is that, apart from the quarterback and one cornerback, the rest of the roster is questionable to downright bad. The coaching last season was terrible, it's true, so it's possible that some of the players will come good again, but I can't think that any of them except Gonzalez will want last season on their highlight reels.

And the further bad news is that the cap is ballooning, so a lot of teams have a lot of cap space. That means that, if a team is letting a player hit free agency, then most likely they have a good reason not to re-sign him: they can see that he is finished; he isn't amenable to coaching or whatever. If teams really want a player (Higgins, Tee) they will find a way.

But ...

There are some teams that are really up against the cap. The most obvious are the Saints and the Browns. The Saints have a weird history of pushing money into the future. Maybe they have a way of making that work indefinitely. But the Browns are in a terrible situation for one reason: Deshaun Watson.

What it would take for the Browns to finally get rid of Deshaun Watson

Immediately signing Deshaun Watson to one of the most significant contracts in NFL history always seemed like it would be a massive mistake for the Browns. Today, there's no doubt about it. Watson has reportedly ruptured his Achilles agai

ftw.usatoday.com

Basically, the Browns are screwed unless they can find another team to trade Watson to. But Watson is the trifecta: he played terribly last season; he's got long-term injuries; and he's a toxic human being. So what would it take to find a trade partner?

(1) Another team with a huge amount of cap space

(2) A huge incentive

Let's say the Browns traded Watson to the Pats (designating it as post-June 1 to try to limit the expense). What would the Pats want in return?

(1) First round picks. Not just this year but next.

(2) Maybe Myles Garrett.

(3) A left tackle. Is Dawaan Jones any good?

OK, that looks like a lot, but the Browns are the ones who are desperate, not the Patriots. And maybe they could sweeten things a little bit by sending them Joe Milton. Whether he is going to be a starting NFL quarterback or not, he's definitely better than anything the Browns have on their roster at present.

Just a thought.

WTAF? Sounds like a recipe to turn the Pats into the Browns.

Also what does wasting cap space bailing out Cleveland by eating their mistake for them have to do with getting good again?

To answer the question, yes I think the Pats can get good again quickly, by wisely using cap space. The proposed **** sandwich er I mean eating Watson’s contract is not that.

Here’s a possible quick improvement, in order of priority:
- draft Hunter with the #4 pick
- sign Ronnie Stanley to fix LT
- sign Milton Williams to improve DL
- sign Josh Sweat to improve edge
- sign one decent FA WR at a reasonable price for depth
- draft BPA with rest of picks

That improves the trenches on both sides of the ball, and improves WR.

Theoretically you could trade Watson + #2 overall + their 1st next year in exchange for a 7th round pick, then immediately cut Watson once you acquire him. You’re effectively eating salary on Cleveland’s behalf in exchange for high picks. I don’t think it would happen but it’s possible.

If there’s money enough left after doing the above, this might be worthwhile. Or maybe throw in Myles Garret instead of the pick next year. But only if it leaves enough cap unspent to carry forward into next year as well.

This is basically Patriots taking a big hit to benefit Cleveland, so there are two requirements: good benefit to Patriots, and no harm to them. Harming the Patriots negates any benefit.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Wasn't this pipe dream mentioned on 98.5 Sports Hub the other day? Watson's numbers are just too massive to do it. We need to build around Drake now, and not let this team stink for two more years when he is developing. It would hold him back. Someone came up with this idea from their mom's basement. Its just not happening.

Equally if not more importantly, he's a sex pest.

And BTW this (dumb) idea has been floating around for months. The new part is including players + picks.