To Contend Deep In The Playoffs, We NEED An All-pro WR, NOT!

[rkarp1]

Largely have nothing better to do while snowed in so thought would delve into the thread title at a surface level. Looking back at the past 10 SB champions, here are where their leading WR ranked in that season for receiving yards and TDs respectively.

2024: Brown - 17th, 21st (2nd team)
2023: Rice - 32nd, 18th
2022: Smith-Schuster (!) - 24th, 72nd
2021: Kupp - 1st, 1st (1st team)
2020: Evans - 18th, 4th
2019: Hill - 37th, 16th
2018: Edelman - 28th, 25th
2017: Jeffery - 34th, 4th
2016: Edelman - 13th, 85th
2015: Thomas - 7th, 29th

Average: 21st, 28th

Some obvious takeaways here:
• Only 2 of 10 of these WRs earned All-Pro honors in the given year—Kupp was a big outlier for production.
• Great QB and TE play was going on in many cases for these teams, among other offensive support.
• These teams averaged a WR1 who was roughly just below the 33rd percentile among top WRs for receiving yards and TD production, with over 2/3 of the rest of the leagues top WR ranking above them.

Bottom line.. to be a good team you need a lot of good things going for you at multiple position groups to be a SB threat. WR1 in a vacuum is not the be all and end all.

this is really misleading knowing the talent surrounding these guys listed.

 

[rkarp1]

Good organizations find their WR's in the draft or even on the waiver wire. Bad organizations pay a premium to find their WR's because they're not confident they can develop their own.
the Pats were able to develop Welkie and JE. they also had a great run with Gronk. since 2019 they have only struck out: Harry, Agholor, Jonnu, Asiasi, Keene, Nixon, TT. Maybe Pop, Polk and Baker develop, but a really poor stretch of development

 

[Real fan 02]

Pats need to build better O-line and feature Rham more since they paid him. Pats will put together a better effort in signing some WR's than Osborn that so many here were excited about for no reason.

Can't state this enough! Perfectly put. We won superbowls with elite OLs and DLs. I'll say this repeatedly we've already had an upgrade to the roster simply by having Vrabel and McDaniels back in Foxboro. Vrabel is a Demanding coach who knows what sound LOS looks like. I suspect we won't be getting run on 17 times in a row this season.

 

[rkarp1]

Can't state this enough! Perfectly put. We won superbowls with elite OLs and DLs. I'll say this repeatedly we've already had an upgrade to the roster simply by having Vrabel and McDaniels back in Foxboro. Vrabel is a Demanding coach who knows what sound LOS looks like. I suspect we won't be getting run on 17 times in a row this season.

can't say it enough
like the chicken and egg
same situation. evaluation and development
are the Pats not evaluating properly or coaching properly?

you mention "elite" line play. the team never drafted or signed in free agency "elite" linemen, to any large degree. Yes, Seymour. Yes Mankie.
But the glory days were littered with day 2 picks, late round picks and even udfa's that were developed and coached.

 

[Real fan 02]

can't say it enough
like the chicken and egg
same situation. evaluation and development
are the Pats not evaluating properly or coaching properly?

you mention "elite" line play. the team never drafted or signed in free agency "elite" linemen, to any large degree. Yes, Seymour. Yes Mankie.
But the glory days were littered with day 2 picks, late round picks and even udfa's that were developed and coached.

Agreed. You perfectly highlighted when I said "elite". Go back and look at those good patriots teams. We had elite play on both sides of the ball in the trenches.. Matt light or nate solder wasn't false Starting every snap. Then in the post season both lines raised thier games. You don't need 5 all pros on the OL u need sound play. That starts with the coaching.. on defense sterling Moore, Philip adams for example were practice squad guys who were coached well. So all of our superbowl victories all had elite play in the trenches.

 

[rkarp1]

Agreed. You perfectly highlighted when I said "elite". Go back and look at those good patriots teams. We had elite play on both sides of the ball in the trenches.. Matt light or nate solder wasn't false Starting every snap. Then in the post season both lines raised thier games. You don't need 5 all pros on the OL u need sound play. That starts with the coaching.. on defense sterling Moore, Philip adams for example were practice squad guys who were coached well. So all of our superbowl victories all had elite play in the trenches.

also need elite coaching to get elite play

 

[Real fan 02]

also need elite coaching to get elite play

We have that now. Regardless of his HC tenure McDaniels is a excellent offensive coach, Vrabel took Ryan tannehill to the AFCCG and came here and embarrassed us running down our throats... it's just obvious to see that solidifying the trenches is what this team desperately needs.

 

[n1997y]

this is really misleading knowing the talent surrounding these guys listed.

NO!!!!!!

It speaks directly to the point.

The point is, ALL PRO WR IS NOT NEEDED. Look at the thread title, duh.

The counter argument to the need for all pro caliber WRs is that it’s the rest of the team that makes the difference.

You just made that point, and it’s the very point you argued against!

The list below clearly shows that all pro WR is not required to win it all.

Largely have nothing better to do while snowed in so thought would delve into the thread title at a surface level. Looking back at the past 10 SB champions, here are where their leading WR ranked in that season for receiving yards and TDs respectively.

2024: Brown - 17th, 21st (2nd team)
2023: Rice - 32nd, 18th
2022: Smith-Schuster (!) - 24th, 72nd
2021: Kupp - 1st, 1st (1st team)
2020: Evans - 18th, 4th
2019: Hill - 37th, 16th
2018: Edelman - 28th, 25th
2017: Jeffery - 34th, 4th
2016: Edelman - 13th, 85th
2015: Thomas - 7th, 29th

Average: 21st, 28th

Some obvious takeaways here:
• Only 2 of 10 of these WRs earned All-Pro honors in the given year—Kupp was a big outlier for production.
• Great QB and TE play was going on in many cases for these teams, among other offensive support.
• These teams averaged a WR1 who was roughly just below the 33rd percentile among top WRs for receiving yards and TD production, with over 2/3 of the rest of the leagues top WR ranking above them.

Bottom line.. to be a good team you need a lot of good things going for you at multiple position groups to be a SB threat. WR1 in a vacuum is not the be all and end all.

 

[Wozzy]

you mention "elite" line play. the team never drafted or signed in free agency "elite" linemen, to any large degree. Yes, Seymour. Yes Mankie.
But the glory days were littered with day 2 picks, late round picks and even udfa's that were developed and coached.

The dynasty Pats had quite a few elite linemen on both sides of the ball. On top of that they found very good players in free agency and the draft. It was almost always a well rounded unit.

Versus what we saw last year, a couple good linemen surrounded by jags and poor coaching. Add bad talent in free agency and the draft… expect to be bad.

It starts in the offseason and in player evaluation.

 

[PatsFan2]

Many seem to think that we need an all--pro quality WR to contend deep into the playoffs, and really should have a #2 who is close.
======
There are NOT very many of these, and few are available.
===
I've only followed the team for 45 years. We have had exactly TWO all-pro wide receivers.
====
We do indeed need two starting WR's. Our #3 and #4's will look much, much better.

Yess You do need one a day half.

 

[pazrul72]

Good organizations find their WR's in the draft or even on the waiver wire. Bad organizations pay a premium to find their WR's because they're not confident they can develop their own.
the Pats were able to develop Welkie and JE. they also had a great run with Gronk. since 2019 they have only struck out: Harry, Agholor, Jonnu, Asiasi, Keene, Nixon, TT. Maybe Pop, Polk and Baker develop, but a really poor stretch of development

Welkie? Put some respect on that mans name, its Welker and they traded the dolphins a 2nd and a 7th round pick to aquire him. They didnt develop him, he developed a mental mind meld with Brady and went from being a pop douglas level player to the best damn slot WR in NFL history.

 

[Real fan 02]

The dynasty Pats had quite a few elite linemen on both sides of the ball. On top of that they found very good players in free agency and the draft. It was almost always a well rounded unit.

Versus what we saw last year, a couple good linemen surrounded by jags and poor coaching. Add bad talent in free agency and the draft… expect to be bad.

It starts in the offseason and in player evaluation.

Vince, Seymour were elite DL, Matt light, Stephen Neal, Mankins on the OL.

 

[Wozzy]

Vince, Seymour were elite DL, Matt light, Stephen Neal, Mankins on the OL.

I can name a lot more. Hell Vollmer was elite and a second round pick, the only reason he wasn’t a HOF’er was health. When he was healthy he was dominant.

 

[hornetfb85]

Pretty obvious we need everything except QB. OL, WR, non fumbling RB. We need upgrades everywhere. OL needs the most, but a good WR that can maybe get open would be beneficial as well.

 

[Real fan 02]

I can name a lot more. Hell Vollmer was elite and a second round pick, the only reason he wasn’t a HOF’er was health. When he was healthy he was dominant.

Agreed. Come to think of it we had some elite players through the years. I've never appreciated good coaching more than I have having gone through the past season.. mayo was like a deer in the headlights.

 

[Real fan 02]

Pretty obvious we need everything except QB. OL, WR, non fumbling RB. We need upgrades everywhere. OL needs the most, but a good WR that can maybe get open would be beneficial as well.

To be honest our WRs aren't terrible they just aren't game changers or consistent play makers. Having Deebo or kupp significantly helps every one especially with Josh McDaniels touch on things.

 

[lancerman]

To be honest our WRs aren't terrible they just aren't game changers or consistent play makers. Having Deebo or kupp significantly helps every one especially with Josh McDaniels touch on things.

No they are terrible. Any individual ranking of them in last few years you could give them usually has them near bottom of the league. And you can measure them on things like separation where it has nothing to do with the line or QB and see that they suck. Polk legitimately is the worst starting WR in the league and he's not even really close to the second worst guy.

The line matters a lot, but we need to stop pretending we are going to win anything if these are the guys we are fielding

 

[Real fan 02]

No they are terrible. Any individual ranking of them in last few years you could give them usually has them near bottom of the league. And you can measure them on things like separation where it has nothing to do with the line or QB and see that they suck. Polk legitimately is the worst starting WR in the league and he's not even really close to the second worst guy.

The line matters a lot, but we need to stop pretending we are going to win anything if these are the guys we are fielding

I think terrible is a bit much.. the situation all around was terrible.. Boutte and pop had adequate years based on everything they were surrounded with.. now.. don't get me wrong I'm not here proclaiming any of them are all- pros.. simply saying they aren't game changers adding some real difference makers would allow them to play more naturally as 3s and 4s..

 

[Hugepatsfan]

Saying our WRs and receiving threats overall are garbage does not mean that every singe player is garbage individually. Bourne when healthy and Douglas are #3s. Boutte is a #4. They are all individually fine players. None are trash in the sense that they don't belong on the roster. But when they are your #1/#2/#3, that means you have a garbage set of WRs.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Many seem to think that we need an all--pro quality WR to contend deep into the playoffs, and really should have a #2 who is close.
======
There are NOT very many of these, and few are available.
===
I've only followed the team for 45 years. We have had exactly TWO all-pro wide receivers.
====
We do indeed need two starting WR's. Our #3 and #4's will look much, much better.

Agree 100%....but what is mandatory to contend is:

-Fundamentally sound QB who can make the occasional big play and create 1st downs via the air or ground
-Solid offensive line
-A defense which makes key stops and force turnovers
-Sound special teams play