The Official Vrabel vs Ben Johnson Discussion Thread

[Love The Drake]

I think we are on equal footing with Chicago because Maye is an Alien.
And Williams isn’t as dynamic.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Interesting thread. Clear that fans are divided on this one. Expected arguments about experienced HC v OC etc. However, none of us really know what BJ would bring. We kinda know what MV would be as we've seen it in Nashville. The interview process should make things clearer to those making the call. Hopefully, we too will learn more.

From what I have read Johnson runs a power run game offense that throws the ball out of it. He’s creative, but the base system emphasizes running the ball, with a heavy emphasis on a high powered OL, which the Patriots don’t have.

 

[sb1]

So your point is that with good players Vrabel is a really good coach and with bad payers he's a really bad coach?

Bills record with the Patriots post Tom Brady is actually worse (.433) than his record in Cleveland. In fact, in all of his non Tom Brady games combined he had a winning % of .452. just barely better than his Cleveland winning % of .450.

So really your point is true. Great players change everything...

I never once said he wasn't better than Mayo. To the contrary I said he would be a major upgrade.

He's still a middle coaching. Your stats prove that.

Conveniently enough though you did leave out his playoff record. 2-3 with a 3 game losing streak.

We can do better.

Yeah getting an upgrade from Mayo isn't a high bar to get over.

I think Bill's record is .426 post Brady including the loss in Buffalo in the wild card round.

Vrabel took over a Titans team that made the division round the year prior. They had quite a bit of talent already that can do what Vrabel wants them to do including Derrick Henry entering his prime. Not exactly the same situation here in NE. Titans fans seem to think he's not great at hiring an offensive coaching staff. Caveat emptor. He also is like BB where he wants a lot of control. That worked great here with Bill until it didn't.

Don't know enough about Johnson to have a take but I like the idea of a young innovative offensive HC that can take Maye to the next level.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

like most id be super happy with both, but i would prefer Johnson. I could be totally wrong on Vrabel but im not sure what his ceiling his style is in today’s game. Maye realizing his absolute full potential is our single best bet at winning another sb and Johnson running the show is our best bet at this happening.

That all said, as ive said before id love to see what vrabel can do with a real qb so i would still be very happy with him. As long as we get one of the 2.

 

[JMC00]

Strong defensively

I honestly don't know where this comes from. Vrabel is as strong defensively as his DC. His 1 year as Houston DC they were 32nd in points and 20th in yards. That was a season after RAC had them 11th in points and 1st in yards and the 1 year in Tennessee when they didn't have a DC they were 24th in points allowed and 28th in yards allowed. While Arthur Smith had the offense 4th in points and 2nd in yards.

Look closer at the years that Tennessee had an official DC

2018- Dean Pees- 3rd in points & 8th in yards
2019- Dean Pees- 12th & 21st
2020- No DC- 24th & 28th
2021- Shane Bowen- 6th & 12th
2022- Shane Bowen- 14th & 23rd
2023- Shane Bowen- 16th & 18th

So I would say Vrabel teams have had 2 strong defensive years out of 7. But mostly his team's defenses have been middle of the pack.

It's why I lean slightly towards Ben Johnson. He's been calling some like all-time great offense type stuff the last couple of years, obviously he has better personnel but Lions been a top 5 offense in both points and yards for 3 straight years with Jared Goff as QB. Same Jared Goff who with McVay Belichick and Flores made look like a J.A.G in a Superbowl.

So with Johnson you know you are getting a top of the league offensive playcaller With Vrabel he had 3 OC's in Tennessee, Arthur Smith, Matt LaFleur and Todd Downing. Matt LaFleur is obviously off the table. Arthur Smith since it's not a promotion Pittsburgh would probably block it, which leaves Todd Downing, which I would ****ing dread him being the OC. But maybe Vrabel would have someone different.

I don't know I think I just prefer going the road of the clear best OC the last 3 years knowing the offense would have a guy that has been an elite playcaller over "I wonder who Vrabel is gonna pick for OC and DC"

 

[jdlboot14]

Each of these options have great potential. The final decision will come down to this question:
Does Vrabel's HC experience trump the offensive innovation that Johnson brings?

If the Krafts pendulum swings opposite of Mayo - than a proven HC that instills respect, discipline, has charisma and character is who wins.

But, the package of OC, DC should carry a lot of weight. So will Vrabel's willingness to work under Wolf/Highsmith.

 

[mgcolby]

Just an FYI as I along with others have sort of defaulted to Ray Agnew as the front office guy Ben Johnson wants to bring with him, here is an article from about a week ago that says otherwise.

https://wgntv.com/sports/bears-report/ben-johnson-likely-to-push-for-a-gm-besides-ryan-poles-report-says/

This guy brings up a dude I have zero knowledge about. Lance Newmark. What is intriguing to me is Peters hired him to be his assistant GM last year. He came from Detroit. That is two teams that turned around bad rosters rather quickly and mostly through the draft.

Just figured I throw this out there.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I honestly don't know where this comes from. Vrabel is as strong defensively as his DC. His 1 year as Houston DC they were 32nd in points and 20th in yards. That was a season after RAC had them 11th in points and 1st in yards and the 1 year in Tennessee when they didn't have a DC they were 24th in points allowed and 28th in yards allowed. While Arthur Smith had the offense 4th in points and 2nd in yards.

Look closer at the years that Tennessee had an official DC

2018- Dean Pees- 3rd in points & 8th in yards
2019- Dean Pees- 12th & 21st
2020- No DC- 24th & 28th
2021- Shane Bowen- 6th & 12th
2022- Shane Bowen- 14th & 23rd
2023- Shane Bowen- 16th & 18th

So I would say Vrabel teams have had 2 strong defensive years out of 7. But mostly his team's defenses have been middle of the pack.

It's why I lean slightly towards Ben Johnson. He's been calling some like all-time great offense type stuff the last couple of years, obviously he has better personnel but Lions been a top 5 offense in both points and yards for 3 straight years with Jared Goff as QB. Same Jared Goff who with McVay Belichick and Flores made look like a J.A.G in a Superbowl.

So with Johnson you know you are getting a top of the league offensive playcaller that probably would bring in former HC DC or a long-time DC. With Vrabel he had 3 OC's in Tennessee, Arthur Smith, Matt LaFleur and Todd Downing. Matt LaFleur is obviously off the table. Arthur Smith since it's not a promotion Pittsburgh would probably block it, which leaves Todd Downing, which I would ****ing dread him being the OC. But maybe Vrabel would have someone different

I don't know I think I just prefer going the road of the clear best OC the last 3 years knowing the offense would have a guy that has been an elite playcaller over "I wonder who Vrabel is gonna pick for OC and DC"

This is 100% true. Fans which believe Vrabel will magically morph this defense into a top unit are kidding themselves.

Defenses need talent. That is a big reason why BB consistently spent high draft choices and paid top dollar on defensive players.

When TN was in the top 10 in points allowed they had 2-3 pro bowlers on D.

In HOU he had Clowney...thats it.

If Vrabel is hired it'll be for his organization, culture, leadership, and football brain.

If Johnson is hired it'll be for all of those things as well but also for his ability to innovate on offense and be someone that will develop Maye.

For that reason I am leaning towards Johnson. If they get Vrabel I won't be too upset.

 

[Tunescribe]

Taking bets now on Johnson going to Chicago. He had his eye on the Bears a year ago.

Assessing each new NFL head coach-team pairing during 2025 hiring cycle

 

[Love The Drake]

Taking bets now on Johnson going to Chicago. He had his eye on the Bears a year ago.

Assessing each new NFL head coach-team pairing during 2025 hiring cycle

Prior to us getting Maye and seeing him in the NFL.
I don’t think he would be taking the interview with us if the pendulum couldn’t swing either way.
Very well could be Chi Town but it could just as well be us.
He has a much easier task here in New England. We only have the Bills as a threat.
The North is absolutely stacked.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Taking bets now on Johnson going to Chicago. He had his eye on the Bears a year ago.

Assessing each new NFL head coach-team pairing during 2025 hiring cycle

Why didn't he go to da Bears last year?

 

[Scotty]

GMFB NFL site is saying that Vrabel and Johnson will be interviewed by the Bears

 

[jdlboot14]

The argument can always be for a winning HC - that he had a great OC, or QB, or all pro player, etc...
Of course! No coach can win without good staff and some very good players... BB always said that.

Johnson won't win as a HC if he doesn't have a good OL and QB and some above average skill players.
Let's assume Vrabel can get a good OC & DC, and Wolf helps by bringing some real talent in.

 

[Love The Drake]

GMFB NFL site is saying that Vrabel and Johnson will be interviewed by the Bears

We are both chasing the same 2 guys.
Any other interview requests we put in?
I want a wider net.

 

[lancerman]

The argument can always be for a winning HC - that he had a great OC, or QB, or all pro player, etc...
Of course! No coach can win without good staff and some very good players... BB always said that.

Johnson won't win as a HC if he doesn't have a good OL and QB and some above average skill players.
Let's assume Vrabel can get a good OC & DC, and Wolf helps by bringing some real talent in.

A big difference is Vrabel was successful because of his offense not his defense, despite being a defensive HC. He had Lafluer and Smith. He lost both of them as OC within 3 years and once he was on Downing it sort of fell apart after a season.

OC's go fast and we already saw Vrabel burn through them and not be able be able to sustain it.

At least with Johnson, you know offense is set and DC's don't leave as frequently anymore. And also, Johnson's current team is winning because of his side of the ball.

 

[imahobgoblin]

So your point is that with good players Vrabel is a really good coach and with bad payers he's a really bad coach?

Bills record with the Patriots post Tom Brady is actually worse (.433) than his record in Cleveland. In fact, in all of his non Tom Brady games combined he had a winning % of .452. just barely better than his Cleveland winning % of .450.

So really your point is true. Great players change everything...

I never once said he wasn't better than Mayo. To the contrary I said he would be a major upgrade.

He's still a middle coaching. Your stats prove that.

Conveniently enough though you did leave out his playoff record. 2-3 with a 3 game losing streak.

We can do better.

No, actually my point is that you just make up crap. I didn't say any of that. You are just a troll.

 

[Rob0729]

I think with Vrabel it is all about who he installs as his OC and with Johnson it is more about how good of a leader he can be.

Vrabel is a good leader and very strategic, but he needs to get an OC who can fix the offense and put Maye in a position to shine. It is positive that Vrabel's consulting position this year was on offense, but it still isn't his wheelhouse even though he is going to be the head coach with the most receiving TDs in his professional career.

With Johnson, it is all about whether he can go to the next level. Not all OCs can do it (see Josh McDaniels). Of course he needs a strong DC, but I think that is easier to find since the league is more focused on offense.

I think Vrabel has a far higher floor, but I am not sure he has a higher ceiling. Tough to tell. If Johnson can do the magic he did with Goff on Maye, he might have a higher ceiling because Maye is far more talented than Goff.

 

[Family]

There should be a poll.

I'm not sure who would win.

 

[Water Boy]

I'm free

Probably and upgrade from Mayo.

 

[Water Boy]

I think with Vrabel it is all about who he installs as his OC and with Johnson it is more about how good of a leader he can be.

Vrabel is a good leader and very strategic, but he needs to get an OC who can fix the offense and put Maye in a position to shine. It is positive that Vrabel's consulting position this year was on offense, but it still isn't his wheelhouse even though he is going to be the head coach with the most receiving TDs in his professional career.

With Johnson, it is all about whether he can go to the next level. Not all OCs can do it (see Josh McDaniels). Of course he needs a strong DC, but I think that is easier to find since the league is more focused on offense.

I think Vrabel has a far higher floor, but I am not sure he has a higher ceiling. Tough to tell. If Johnson can do the magic he did with Goff on Maye, he might have a higher ceiling because Maye is far more talented than Goff.

Good post. I think one thing we need to consider is how loaded the Lions roster is. Best OLine in football, stud receivers, LaPorta great RBs. I honestly think AVP could do a half decent job with that roster.