PATRIOTS TRAINING CAMP Thursday Patriots Training Camp Thread 8/1

[PatsFan2]

Juju doesn’t really cost anything. The cash is already spent and we are in a phase where the cash spending limit prevents us from using all of the cap so the dead money hit is essentially free.

Thanks A.J: Juju is a sure Cut! and he's doing absolutely nothing in camp other than *dropping balls*. No pun I think they have pics of him showing them early this Offseason.

 

[Wozzy]

Add in that WRs and other quick twitch players tend to take additional time even when "back" to even approach former production. There's this fallacy that once a player is back it's the same as when they were hurt. That's almost never the case.

They not only have to get back into just basic foundational shape, but also learn what the newly healed body part can and can't do. Add that to the mental aspect in doing so and the assumption of Bourne is likely well above the actuality of what he'll be for at least a few weeks if not longer this season.

This is why I think they could keep him on the PUP, he's already paid so he can't whine about it. Get him back o full strength, they may need him later in the season if they sustain some injuries... same with Strange. Hopefully he can come back midseason or so.

 

[p8ryts]

This is why I think they could keep him on the PUP, he's already paid so he can't whine about it. Get him back o full strength, they may need him later in the season if they sustain some injuries... same with Strange. Hopefully he can come back midseason or so.

Granted Bourne has shown flashes of competence. Runs his mouth to much for me. Play a full season, be quiet and let your actions speak. I don't have a lot of confidence in him. Definitely keep him on PUP, see what we have from the other WR's. Play him the last half or trade him if we don't need him.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

Juju doesn’t really cost anything. The cash is already spent and we are in a phase where the cash spending limit prevents us from using all of the cap so the dead money hit is essentially free.

He costs us if we keep him when we could have traded him for small comp + they take on say half his salary. I don't think he provides anything that we don't already have in one of these younger receivers.

 

[Wozzy]

Granted Bourne has shown flashes of competence. Runs his mouth to much for me. Play a full season, be quiet and let your actions speak. I don't have a lot of confidence in him. Definitely keep him on PUP, see what we have from the other WR's. Play him the last half or trade him if we don't need him.

I think he’s high energy and reckless with his mouth, but not malicious. People think he got benched for running his mouth in 22’, it was more because of fights in the joint practices and preseason. He got yelled at Matt in camp, I was there, it was for over celebrating his teammates and trying to pump them up when the coaches were talking. Can’t fault a guy for that. He didn’t get blackballed until he swung punches and was an instigator.

When healthy he’s very competent, he’s only a ”good” athlete though so he’s limited in that regard. But he has length, sure hands, good mobility, explosion, he maxes out that 4.5 speed and runs like his hair is on fire.

 

[Ring 6]

He costs us if we keep him when we could have traded him for small comp + they take on say half his salary. I don't think he provides anything that we don't already have in one of these younger receivers.

He has experience and high level production. No one else in the roster has produced at the level he has in this league, not really even close.
But I was referring to a dead money cost of cutting him as a reason to keep him and that won’t be a factor.

 

[Ross12]

Juju doesn’t really cost anything. The cash is already spent and we are in a phase where the cash spending limit prevents us from using all of the cap so the dead money hit is essentially free.

I’m not sure what you mean about the cash spending limit - but I don’t really agree with the other part. He’s “free” in the sense that you don’t really gain anything if you cut him, so you may as well hold onto him in that sense, but you can gain a sizeable chunk of cap space back by trading him and relieving yourself of his guaranteed salary in 2024.

That’s not to mention the opportunity cost - even if you have no takers on a trade so he saves you nearly nothing by cutting him, you are still potentially using up a roster spot on him when you might have other younger and healthier guys you’d rather carry and develop, or another veteran (Osborn) who is healthier and essentially in the same boat (guaranteed salary).

 

[Ring 6]

I’m not sure what you mean about the cash spending limit - but I don’t really agree with the other part. He’s “free” in the sense that you don’t really gain anything if you cut him, so you may as well hold onto him in that sense, but you can gain a sizeable chunk of cap space back by trading him and relieving yourself of his guaranteed salary in 2024.

That’s not to mention the opportunity cost - even if you have no takers on a trade so he saves you nearly nothing by cutting him, you are still potentially using up a roster spot on him when you might have other younger and healthier guys you’d rather carry and develop, or another veteran (Osborn) who is healthier and essentially in the same boat (guaranteed salary).

I’m saying gaining the cap space is irrelevant because Kraft won’t use it.
The dead money will have zero impact on whether he makes the team or not.

 

[Ross12]

I’m saying gaining the cap space is irrelevant because Kraft won’t use it.
The dead money will have zero impact on whether he makes the team or not.

Cap space is cap space, more is more. Whether it’s used this year or rolled into next year, it’s still more.

 

[Ring 6]

Cap space is cap space, more is more. Whether it’s used this year or rolled into next year, it’s still more.

He left over 40 million on the table this year when the roster needed it. He had over 70 mill next year, he won’t use what carries over.
And jujus contract is up next year so you end up with more cap next year if you cut him than if you keep him anyway.

 

[n1997y]

Juju doesn’t really cost anything. The cash is already spent and we are in a phase where the cash spending limit prevents us from using all of the cap so the dead money hit is essentially free.

He costs a roster slot that could go to a youngster who is better now and whose career arc is ascending not descending.

 

[WinstonSmith]

He left over 40 million on the table this year when the roster needed it. He had over 70 mill next year, he won’t use what carries over.
And jujus contract is up next year so you end up with more cap next year if you cut him than if you keep him anyway.

If you want to ***** about cash spending fine, but except for the COVID year the Patriots have always spent to the cap and what they didn't utilize was carried over.

From a cap perspective they are handling this portion of the rebuild well, and Bill should be given some credit for not mortgaging the future by borrowing future cap dollars and wasting additional future draft pics to win a few more games in 2023. Kraft and Wolf should be given credit for slow playing this rebuild, as their goal is not to build the best possible team this year, but to maximize the Patriots' chances of winning a future super bowl.

Perennial super bowl contenders are built mostly through the draft and augmented via free agency. Wolf was left with the most current/future cap space in the league and the most draft capital that the Patriots have had in recent memory. In this multi year rebuild, it would've been a mistake to buy as many high priced free agents as possible, as they would've ******ed the growth of the rookies. They're doing what I wanted them to do (so they must be wicked smart); sign their best players, sign needed but not high priced FAs, not trade away draft picks, develop their draft picks, and roll over cap to 2025.

Next year they'll spend to the cap (less than 10 million carry over - most likely less than 8) and build around the core that was developed this year, Team building 101.

 

[Ring 6]

He costs a roster slot that could go to a youngster who is better now and whose career arc is ascending not descending.

He does. My point was there is no real cost to cutting him.

 

[Ring 6]

If you want to ***** about cash spending fine, but except for the COVID year the Patriots have always spent to the cap and what they didn't utilize was carried over.

From a cap perspective they are handling this portion of the rebuild well, and Bill should be given some credit for not mortgaging the future by borrowing future cap dollars and wasting additional future draft pics to win a few more games in 2023. Kraft and Wolf should be given credit for slow playing this rebuild, as their goal is not to build the best possible team this year, but to maximize the Patriots' chances of winning a future super bowl.

Perennial super bowl contenders are built mostly through the draft and augmented via free agency. Wolf was left with the most current/future cap space in the league and the most draft capital that the Patriots have had in recent memory. In this multi year rebuild, it would've been a mistake to buy as many high priced free agents as possible, as they would've ******ed the growth of the rookies. They're doing what I wanted them to do (so they must be wicked smart); sign their best players, sign needed but not high priced FAs, not trade away draft picks, develop their draft picks, and roll over cap to 2025.

Next year they'll spend to the cap (less than 10 million carry over - most likely less than 8) and build around the core that was developed this year, Team building 101.

That was when Belichick was here. Now we see 43,000,000 sitting in the table.
Cash spent is importantly. All cap numbers are not created equal. We signed Brissett for 1 year 7 mill (I think) for example. 7 mill of cap space could also get you a 5 year 60 million player with 30 mill up front. Thats not the same roster or the same cash spent.
It’s becoming evident that BB operated under financial constraints and built a team without many top dollar guys because he had to not because he wanted to but the rings gave him ammo to fight Kraft to at least spend to the cap.
With Mayo and wolf there are no pelts on the wall and Kraft won’t bend. Dozens of players that would make this a better team signed elsewhere and we didn’t really try to sign them and when the music stops we are left with 43,000,000 and a bad team.


I’ve got news for you, they won’t be spending to the cap next year either. The only way they will is if they do it with brissett like contract where the cap hit is close to the cash. The man who made the cap work is gone. The man who could make Kraft open his wallet just a little is gone.

I’m shocked that you could honestly say that from a cap perspective they are handling it well. They left 43.000,000 on the table.

we could have had a top WR, LT better RB2 and a bunch of defensive players with that money. We could have built a team Maye could win with if he gets dialed in as a rookie. Instead we gave no chance to win and sit here hoping maybe next year we won’t go to battle with 80% of what we could have against teams trying to put the best team on the field.

 

[Wozzy]

That was when Belichick was here. Now we see 43,000,000 sitting in the table.
Cash spent is importantly. All cap numbers are not created equal. We signed Brissett for 1 year 7 mill (I think) for example. 7 mill of cap space could also get you a 5 year 60 million player with 30 mill up front. Thats not the same roster or the same cash spent.
It’s becoming evident that BB operated under financial constraints and built a team without many top dollar guys because he had to not because he wanted to but the rings gave him ammo to fight Kraft to at least spend to the cap.
With Mayo and wolf there are no pelts on the wall and Kraft won’t bend. Dozens of players that would make this a better team signed elsewhere and we didn’t really try to sign them and when the music stops we are left with 43,000,000 and a bad team.


I’ve got news for you, they won’t be spending to the cap next year either. The only way they will is if they do it with brissett like contract where the cap hit is close to the cash. The man who made the cap work is gone. The man who could make Kraft open his wallet just a little is gone.

I’m shocked that you could honestly say that from a cap perspective they are handling it well. They left 43.000,000 on the table.

we could have had a top WR, LT better RB2 and a bunch of defensive players with that money. We could have built a team Maye could win with if he gets dialed in as a rookie. Instead we gave no chance to win and sit here hoping maybe next year we won’t go to battle with 80% of what we could have against teams trying to put the best team on the field.

You keep going on and on, yet I've asked you numerous time to provide names and you've dodged it repeatedly.

Who was the expensive left tackle they should have signed, who was the top WR, who was the RB2, who was the bunch of defensive players they should have signed instead?

 

[Ring 6]

You keep going on and on, yet I've asked you numerous time to provide names and you've dodged it repeatedly.

Who was the expensive left tackle they should have signed, who was the top WR, who was the RB2, who was the bunch of defensive players they should have signed instead?

I posted dozens of names.
They could have signed, among others, Smith, Ridley and Pollard.
Go to my previous post and you will see many others along with many defensive players.

 

[Ring 6]

You keep going on and on, yet I've asked you numerous time to provide names and you've dodged it repeatedly.

Who was the expensive left tackle they should have signed, who was the top WR, who was the RB2, who was the bunch of defensive players they should have signed instead?

Almost 70 of them in here.

The guys they wanted were the cheap ones. Why not?
Sneed, Ridley, Williams, pollard, Boyd, Henry, Samuel, Beckham, fuller, Tyron smith, kinlaw, reddick, rankins, Jeudy, z smith, Devon bush, queen, Nixon, Diggs, Schultz, Hunter, okudah, Davis, Cleveland, armstead, marquis brown,peat, James, Wilkins, Dupree, Brian burns, Shaquan , huff, white, Eckler, biadasz, Armstrong, Luvu, chin, swift, Keenan Allen, Everett, byaird, reader, Robertson, Jacob’s, McKinney, Aaron jones, cashman, greenard, Mooney, hunt, Lewis, clowney, a Robinson , jewell (those 4 took Carolina’s money) , chase young, Matthieu, Jonah Williams, Murphy-bunting, jones, Jonah Jackson, white, Williams, curl, Floyd, gross-matos, Elliot.

That’s a lot of players that would have improved this team, and a lot went to not so good teams.

 

[WinstonSmith]

That was when Belichick was here. Now we see 43,000,000 sitting in the table.
Cash spent is importantly. All cap numbers are not created equal. We signed Brissett for 1 year 7 mill (I think) for example. 7 mill of cap space could also get you a 5 year 60 million player with 30 mill up front. Thats not the same roster or the same cash spent.
It’s becoming evident that BB operated under financial constraints and built a team without many top dollar guys because he had to not because he wanted to but the rings gave him ammo to fight Kraft to at least spend to the cap.
With Mayo and wolf there are no pelts on the wall and Kraft won’t bend. Dozens of players that would make this a better team signed elsewhere and we didn’t really try to sign them and when the music stops we are left with 43,000,000 and a bad team.


I’ve got news for you, they won’t be spending to the cap next year either. The only way they will is if they do it with brissett like contract where the cap hit is close to the cash. The man who made the cap work is gone. The man who could make Kraft open his wallet just a little is gone.

I’m shocked that you could honestly say that from a cap perspective they are handling it well. They left 43.000,000 on the table.

we could have had a top WR, LT better RB2 and a bunch of defensive players with that money. We could have built a team Maye could win with if he gets dialed in as a rookie. Instead we gave no chance to win and sit here hoping maybe next year we won’t go to battle with 80% of what we could have against teams trying to put the best team on the field.

I see. Your idea of excellent cap management is spending like a drunken sailor, without care for the importance of developing and maximizing draft resources or the synergies gained by timing large spending acquisitions with the rise of core talent. We'll have to disagree on that.

My point, that they are managing the cap well through 2024, is predicated on them spending effectively to the cap in 2025 (roughly 8 million or less for carryover); if they don't spend to the cap I will concede that Kraft is being cheap, but my money is on the Patriots making a large splash in the 2025 FA market while spending to the cap.

 

[Wozzy]

I posted dozens of names.
They could have signed, among others, Smith, Ridley and Pollard.
Go to my previous post and you will see many others along with many defensive players.

Smith is a fossil, he won't make it through an entire season. He used to be good though...

Ridley is overpriced, he got outplayed by Christian Kirk on his own team last season before Kirk got hurt. His contract is stupid.

Pollard couldn't make it as the RB1 for Dallas, he's an undersized scatback. I'd rather have Gibson as long as he's not putting the ball on the ground.

This is the problem with your take, there were no impact players at the positions of need for the Patriots. I'd agree with you if Tristen Wirfs or Christian Darrisaw were free agents and the Pat's didn't take a shot at acquiring them, but they weren't.

The free agent class at OT and WR were mostly overrated garbage. The Pats have a few WR's already who might turn out better than Ridley. The stud free agent tackle wasn't available, he simply wasn't there. There were guys I wanted over Okorafor for certain, but they were similarly priced free agents... spending more wouldn't have been necessary.

 

[Ring 6]

I see. Your idea of excellent cap management is spending like a drunken sailor, without care for the importance of developing and maximizing draft resources or the synergies gained by timing large spending acquisitions with the rise of core talent. We'll have to disagree on that.

My point, that they are managing the cap well through 2024, is predicated on them spending effectively to the cap in 2025 (roughly 8 million or less for carryover); if they don't spend to the cap I will concede that Kraft is being cheap, but my money is on the Patriots making a large splash in the 2025 FA market while spending to the cap.

Is that what I said? No.
My idea of building a football is using all of the assets you have and not competing with 20% of your team sitting in cash in krafts pocket.

Why would they make a slash next year if they did not this year, and when you answer be sure to include why they resigned there own players and how that is consistent with deciding it’s better to build a team next year instead of this year.
Why sign uche to a 1 year deal? Why franchise Dugger? Why bring back an aging Henry, an injured Bourne? Why sign brisset for 1 year if this year doesn’t matter? Why extend Godchaux? Etc etc