No Point in Tanking, the Future is Bleak

[festy1986]

I don't know anything about this Williams guy but I don't want a QB under 6 foot 3, preferably 6 foot 4 and above.

Mac him self is already too short.

 

[signbabybrady]

Any truth to the Rumors that Caleb Williams might choose to stay at USC because he'll make more at USC then on his rookie deal?

 

[borg]

I laughed so hard when I saw Bryce Young the other day. You mortgaged your franchise for a midget who plays in the pocket? Lmfaooooo

He's just not short, he's tiny and looks like he'll snap in two in a strong breeze.
The Christian Pulisic of the NFL.

And, I didn't see much athleticism or speed out of the little guy either.
I thought to myself: "Check it out, a less athletic guy than Mac.....hard to believe"
But truthfully, it's debatable.

 

[RIpats88]

tanking doesnt work in the NFL. this isnt the NBA where one star can change your whole franchise.

its a team sport. so if you are bad enough to tank for a top QB. that means your roster is going to be absolute garbage around them and probably ruin them. unfortunately that is where we currently are imo.

chiefs/packers did it the right ways imo. built a solid roster, were competing with alex smith. but never stopped looking for the next guy. then you were able to throw mahomes into a good situation.

chiefs didnt give mahomes garbage and say "make it work" colts are an example of a team who did and andrew luck retired because of it

 

[rkarp1]

it is a deep QB class. a great QB might not be so great in a system the drafting team wants to run.
the Pats desperately need to fix their OL issues. I could be happy with an OL in that top 10 draft position, an OL in higher end free agency rank, and another OL at the moderate end of free agency. (think Karras)

 

[BTTA]

Williams relies on his legs a lot and while he runs circles around the future lawyers and accountants he faces in college, he doesn’t have the raw speed necessary to do the same in the NFL.

However I do think he is a good passer. He will likely be the top draft pick next year.

You are suggesting that college football players are getting an education that launches them into demanding graduate schools and then professions?

I'd suggest it would be better said as "insurance and car salesman."

 

[sb1]

Guess the Pats franchise might as well fold.

 

[upstater1]

it is a deep QB class. a great QB might not be so great in a system the drafting team wants to run.
the Pats desperately need to fix their OL issues. I could be happy with an OL in that top 10 draft position, an OL in higher end free agency rank, and another OL at the moderate end of free agency. (think Karras)

Karras is having a horrible year. There are no good FAs anymore at tackle or WR. The guys who get $90m guaranteed like O Brown and McGlinchey have been huge busts. Talent is thin throughout the league and teams are holding on to their top players or else trading them for huge value (Laremy Tunsil, etc.)

 

[upstater1]

This is why the team needs to drop Belichick before the draft arrives because you,I and everyone knows Bill will do his dumbass bad GM move thinking he still has Brady and trade the top pick for 15 picks in the last 3 rounds to grab the cheap scrubs that will catch the noodle arm passes from our current quarterbacks

When the Patriots pick in the top half of the draft, they find a great player, blue chipper, and they've only failed once. Look it up. They trade down when they are in the bottom of the draft and everyone is a 2nd rounder.

Look up the names: Seymour, Mayo, Warren, Gonzalez, Mac Jones.

Also, WHEN one of these top guys drops, the Patriots don't trade down; they snag him, and they even trade up for him: Wilfork, Hightower, Chandler Jones.

Their busts are a matter of picking late (i.e. Easley, or back for Dowling), while other times picking late or trading back worked for them (McCourty, Mankins, Dugger, Chung).

When they see a player they really want in the 2nd round, they'll trade up for him: Gronk, Barmore.

But when it comes to the top of the draft, they have an excellent record of taking future Pro Bowlers and even Hall of Famers. They are 4 for 5, with Mac Jones being the only bust, and no one would have said, DON'T TAKE JONES THERE! Well, there was one guy here on the forum, but he was the only one.

 

[upstater1]

This is the NFL. The future is bleak is a weird thing to say when you see instant turnarounds. What goes up must come down, and outside of a few sad sack franchises, the entire rest of the league rebounds.

 

[Sicilian]

This is why the team needs to drop Belichick before the draft arrives because you,I and everyone knows Bill will do his dumbass bad GM move thinking he still has Brady and trade the top pick for 15 picks in the last 3 rounds to grab the cheap scrubs that will catch the noodle arm passes from our current quarterbacks

I'm in the boat that's thinking it's time for Bill to move on in general. I think it's just such a hard thing to do in your 70's, and it's time for some fresh blood. Doesn't guarantee anything, as new doesn't automatically equal better, but it's probably time.

BUT, this narrative about trading down for late picks has to stop. Every time Bill has had a pick high in the draft he's used it high in the draft.

6th overall used on Seymour
7th overall traded down SLIGHTLY to take Mayo at 10
14th overall traded down SLIGHTLY to take Gonzalez
15th overall used on Jones
17th overall used on Solder

Certainly arguable (especially now with Jones) whether the pick itself was correct, but this fantasy that Bill hates high draft picks and gives them away is false. He just almost never HAS a high draft pick, and clearly sees a drop off in sure-fire can't miss prospects once you get into the 20's.

EDIT: @upstater1 beat me to it while I was having browser issues And I forgot about Warren at 13 (which was a one spot trade UP), as well as trade ups for Chandler Jones and Donta Hightower.

 

[Rob0729]

I have no idea if Willams can play in the NFL. I don't watch enough college football to know. But a shorter QB who is mobile and can get outside the pocket is less hindered by height than a shorter pocket passer.

Look at Russell Wilson. When he could move, he was a top 5 QB. Now that he has lost his athletic ability a bit and become more of a pocket passer, he is below average at best.

Right now we don't even know who will be making the draft picks for the Pats or who will be running the team. If it is Belichick doing both, I doubt he will select Williams. He'd probably trade back.

And actually no matter who is running the team and making the picks, the Pats trading back if they have the #1 pick might be a smart move. There are a lot of good offensive talent at the top of the draft this year including several QBs and WRs and the Pats have a lot of needs. The Dolphins remade their offense trading away the #3 pick in 2020 by turning two of the three first rounders they got into Waddle and Hill. The Pats aren't Caleb Williams away from being a legitimate contender even if he lives up to the hype.

If Chicago and Carolina start playing well enough to have their picks drop down to the lower part of the top 10, who knows, maybe Chicago would trade them for the #1 spot. Arizona has two first round picks too (Houston's pick) and they are likely going to be in the market for a new QB. If the Pats do end up tanking and getting the #1 pick there is a potential to turn around this team quickly with a trade.

 

[Steve102]

Bleak. Might as well just pick a new team to root for.

Regarding tanking, you guys can forget about that. It's not in Bill's blood. Even if the misery continues, he will find a way to get 4-6 more wins. So you'll have that much more to ***** at on how much you hate him.

Looking waaaaaaaaaaaaaay ahead to draft talk, Quinn Ewers, JJ McCarthy, Jayden Daniels and Drake Maye all warrant more research and Saturday game watching. I look forward to BGC breaking them down.

 

[Toofy]

I have no idea if Willams can play in the NFL. I don't watch enough college football to know. But a shorter QB who is mobile and can get outside the pocket is less hindered by height than a shorter pocket passer.

Look at Russell Wilson. When he could move, he was a top 5 QB. Now that he has lost his athletic ability a bit and become more of a pocket passer, he is below average at best.

Right now we don't even know who will be making the draft picks for the Pats or who will be running the team. If it is Belichick doing both, I doubt he will select Williams. He'd probably trade back.

And actually no matter who is running the team and making the picks, the Pats trading back if they have the #1 pick might be a smart move. There are a lot of good offensive talent at the top of the draft this year including several QBs and WRs and the Pats have a lot of needs. The Dolphins remade their offense trading away the #3 pick in 2020 by turning two of the three first rounders they got into Waddle and Hill. The Pats aren't Caleb Williams away from being a legitimate contender even if he lives up to the hype.

If Chicago and Carolina start playing well enough to have their picks drop down to the lower part of the top 10, who knows, maybe Chicago would trade them for the #1 spot. Arizona has two first round picks too and they are likely going to be in the market for a new QB. If the Pats do end up tanking and getting the #1 pick there is a potential to turn around this team quickly with a trade.

I actually tend to agree with this. If we can get 3 elite talent in draft , then we should probably just go and sign kirk cousins and be set for next 2-3 years.

And draft the QB in 2nd round with most upside to learn from cousins . 2 years of learning should hold the QB in good stead. Don't push the new QB to the wolves behind a porous offensive line and with zero weapons.

In fact I would be okay with 2 below par seasons to get QB of future along with WR1 and OT1.


The 2021 and 2022 draft look like huge misses considering that 2019 was a washout.

Our drafts have been so bad that if you tank the last 6 years our best early round pick (1,2) is Dugger followed by Michel.

 

[Kontradiction]

Drake Maye > Caleb Williams.

 

[Brotherblues]

Anyway, give it five years and another Brady or Peyton type pocket passer will come along and start winning and ESPN will start to cry for 15 years or just periodically say a new running quarterback is “changing the game.”

One already did. Plays for San Francisco.

 

[PATRIOTSFANINPA]

When the Patriots pick in the top half of the draft, they find a great player, blue chipper, and they've only failed once. Look it up. They trade down when they are in the bottom of the draft and everyone is a 2nd rounder.

Look up the names: Seymour, Mayo, Warren, Gonzalez, Mac Jones.

Also, WHEN one of these top guys drops, the Patriots don't trade down; they snag him, and they even trade up for him: Wilfork, Hightower, Chandler Jones.

Their busts are a matter of picking late (i.e. Easley, or back for Dowling), while other times picking late or trading back worked for them (McCourty, Mankins, Dugger, Chung).

When they see a player they really want in the 2nd round, they'll trade up for him: Gronk, Barmore.

But when it comes to the top of the draft, they have an excellent record of taking future Pro Bowlers and even Hall of Famers. They are 4 for 5, with Mac Jones being the only bust, and no one would have said, DON'T TAKE JONES THERE! Well, there was one guy here on the forum, but he was the only one.

Even when they do nab a stud early they send him packing within a few years because they don't want to pay them and want to go bargain basement garbage.... Belichick is the reason for that ... big talent not named Brady rarely lasts in New England

 

[1960Pats]

Another overhyped midget who will fail in the NFL. Every year.

The problem when it comes to QBs is that the college coaches stopped developing them to help the NYFL and started developing them to help keep their own jobs. Even the tall ones haven't made much of a mark in the NYFL though.

tanking doesnt work in the NFL. this isnt the NBA where one star can change your whole franchise.

its a team sport. so if you are bad enough to tank for a top QB. that means your roster is going to be absolute garbage around them and probably ruin them. unfortunately that is where we currently are imo.

chiefs/packers did it the right ways imo. built a solid roster, were competing with alex smith. but never stopped looking for the next guy. then you were able to throw mahomes into a good situation.

chiefs didnt give mahomes garbage and say "make it work" colts are an example of a team who did and andrew luck retired because of it

So true. There's also the fact that players are looking to extend their careers and losing doesn't help that.

There was also an Indy tanking in 2009 when Polian used the Pats failure in 2007 to justify pulling all the starters with a chance to go undefeated with two games left. But the truth was that the loss would help eliminate the Steelers, an Indy nemesis, from the playoffs. It worked to a point but then Indy lost the SB on a PEDton Manning pick six.

 

[Steve102]

I have no idea if Willams can play in the NFL. I don't watch enough college football to know. But a shorter QB who is mobile and can get outside the pocket is less hindered by height than a shorter pocket passer.

Look at Russell Wilson. When he could move, he was a top 5 QB. Now that he has lost his athletic ability a bit and become more of a pocket passer, he is below average at best.

Right now we don't even know who will be making the draft picks for the Pats or who will be running the team. If it is Belichick doing both, I doubt he will select Williams. He'd probably trade back.

And actually no matter who is running the team and making the picks, the Pats trading back if they have the #1 pick might be a smart move. There are a lot of good offensive talent at the top of the draft this year including several QBs and WRs and the Pats have a lot of needs. The Dolphins remade their offense trading away the #3 pick in 2020 by turning two of the three first rounders they got into Waddle and Hill. The Pats aren't Caleb Williams away from being a legitimate contender even if he lives up to the hype.

If Chicago and Carolina start playing well enough to have their picks drop down to the lower part of the top 10, who knows, maybe Chicago would trade them for the #1 spot. Arizona has two first round picks too (Houston's pick) and they are likely going to be in the market for a new QB. If the Pats do end up tanking and getting the #1 pick there is a potential to turn around this team quickly with a trade.

I would cosign the trade back from 1, as long as they stay top 10. The gain would be far too lucrative to not take advantage of that.

 

[lancerman]

Young's just the most common example people use to refute the idea that running QBs have a shorter shelf life.

I can provide others.

Young was a successful QB though. He won a ring and had 2 MVP's. It also not really fair to hold those injuries against him when he didn't really get the shot to become a starter until like 7 years into his career. Then when he did he played all 16 games for 3 consecutive years in a row and then only missed a few games in 95 and 96 (in his 11th and 12th year in the league) and then went back to playing nearly all of the season the next 2 years. He almost always led the league in completion percentage and passer rating during that time. And even as late as 1998 in his second to last season he was putting up 4000 yards and leading the league in TD's.

He didn't even have that short of a shelf life. He played for 15 years. And the injury that took him out was a concussion. In the pre 2000's, playing 15 years was a solid career. And your body doesn't stay young and in its prime just because your coach kept you on the bench for Joe Montana for 4 years. Jim Kelly was a starter almost every year of his career and only had 1 more season playing all 16 games than Young. Troy Aikman had the same amount of seasons as Young playing all 16 games and nobody would confuse him for a dual threat QB