Why would anybody want Belichick fired in favor of BOB?

[h0c2000]

People know the context of the Cleveland years…I don’t get why people keep using those against him. That’s like holding the years Pete Carroll coached the Jets against him. Like Belichick, Carroll learned from his mistakes and eventually became a better coach.

Who are the people who are using the Cleveland years against him? Maybe it's not using it against "winning is what matters" Bill, but trying to add context.

Maybe the context is that he's an average HC/GM without a certain QB. Maybe the context is that his record in 5 years in CLE is under .500 and his record in NE without a certain QB is also under .500 in 5 years. Maybe the context is the system/Patriot's way is a bunch of manure. Maybe the context is that Bill's not an idiot and maximized the results for 20 years. Maybe the context is that a 71 year old HC/GM isn't the long term solution. Maybe the context is Bill's coaching tree is riddled with failures in the HC position.

 

[sb1]

And he’s definitely under some pressure to hopefully get into the playoffs and advance. But it’s been just three years without Tom, so this year is key after what happened last year.

People know the context of the Cleveland years…I don’t get why people keep using those against him. That’s like holding the years Pete Carroll coached the Jets against him. Like Belichick, Carroll learned from his mistakes and eventually became a better coach.

That’s how I see it. Bill wasn’t ready for prime time as a head coach back then. He had no track record and still came in with guns blazing at the media and his team. He still had to learn that it’s important to have good relationships with his players and his peers. Might sound crazy to say it but is there really a big difference between Matt Patricia and Joe Judge today and BB back then?

I think the last 3 seasons have proven that having a great coach is good but having great players especially the greatest at the most important position is much better. Having both as we did is obviously the best

Great players can carry a JAG coach a long way but a great coach can’t do the same for a mediocre team. Hence BB’s losing record minus the GOAT.

 

[Noexcusesfornumber5]

Maybe an understanding Pats fan wouldn't give a **** about any type of comparison with regards to the greatest coach that's ever done it.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

One day there will be a Patriots without Belichick. If you are itching for this to be that day, here's a little thought experiment.

Just envision the New York Post or some other NY rag with the 72-point headline "FINALLY!" with a picture of a smiling Belichick shaking hands with Rodgers and whoever owns that franchise now.

He wouldn't budge on the Brady spend, although I think Brady wanted talent around him more than just the payout... but we weren't going to be able to keep trying to restock as befit the GOAT's capabilities. Cam Newton was a mistake that BB pretty much put down to the Pats' cap balance sheet in '20. Then he and the brain trust, fresh off paying their dues on '20, with a young and therefore virtually free draftee QB, made their move in free agency, the big spending spree. Like any FA move, it was hit or miss.

- Hunter Henry hit, Jonnu Smith... there's whiffing, then there's Jonnu Smith. I don't think there's a word for that level of miss. I'll add, however, that it's not like we were seriously expecting Mac to see the second tight end. Unless we just stitched "Meyers" onto his jersey.
- Trent Brown. Too early to tell. I kid because I love but Trent, big guy, please stay on the field. I know it's a tight fit but seriously dude.
- Jalen Mills, ok.
- Matt Judon, ARE U KIDDDING ME
- Devon Godchaux, not much love here, BB calls him "one of the best defensive tackles in the league"
- The Deatrich Wise re-sign was part of that "spree"
- Kendrick Bourne: He plays great when you deign to play him. I think a lot of the offensive woes have to do with how much perceived opportunity there has been to throw. But he was also on the receiving end of some kind of doghouse treatment in 22. CAN he be worth the money? Yeah. Was he under-utilized? Also yeah.
- Davante Parker. Thus far, all potential, really. But apparently we believe that if we fix some o-line/coaching concerns, he can be what we believe him to be, a 2A-2B tandem with newly acquired Smith-Schuster. Weird factoid: The deals they signed this year are both 3 years, 33 million dollars. So we apparently medium-believe in both these guys. (Nobody is getting paid like a number 1. To be fair, nobody has those "rule the roost" numbers.
- Nelson Agholor. He had the speed but it never translated - much the same as a lot of the pass-catchers' woes. Potential was there. Something else was not.
- Adam Butler, Ted karras. I believe these guys are like bondo for the dings? Anybody?
- David Andrews. He's good when playing.
- Retaining JC Jackson (at 3.38 m) - yeah that worked out pretty well.
- KVN
- Nick Folk, another needed piece
- Raekwon McMillan
- 1 more year of James White

That's not everybody but a lot of them. There were some great calls in there (HH and Judon,) a lot of okay signings, and a lot of disappointments. I think, since there were so many pass catching targets in the group, we see a lot of downside because in the time available, the QB available, could not deliver to available receivers. All that in the presence of the coaching available (combine that with the linemen available to yield the time available.)

The uber-principle was sound: get the costs off your books before the deflated market of 2021, spend in 2021, get the best yield from that off-season's caponomics. Mixed results. Certainly not a home run, but a lot of what they were trying to buy was depth up and down the roster, not fantasy football standouts.

2021 was a playoff year -- not an immediate rebound to the Super Bowl, but only in NE would fans demand that.
2022 was an epic bed-crapping... which has fans at this point asking the questions about BB's head rolling.

So here we are, BB's sins enumerated above (since the "original" sin of letting TFB leave the building... which actually, TFB was just ready to do, if you ax me.)

Given these things....

Who's ready for that NY Post headline tomorrow?

I mean, be honest. BB goes his own way, he makes mistakes, and he makes calls that are either genius or stupid in retrospect. He ignores the noise, studiously.

Without Brady, should I be t4errified of that NY Post headline?

I think I should, actually. I think shut up about letting the GOAT coach go, because of our view of the last 3 years. (They haven't been the best but come on.)

 

[Ian]

Who are the people who are using the Cleveland years against him? Maybe it's not using it against "winning is what matters" Bill, but trying to add context.

Maybe the context is that he's an average HC/GM without a certain QB. Maybe the context is that his record in 5 years in CLE is under .500 and his record in NE without a certain QB is also under .500 in 5 years. Maybe the context is the system/Patriot's way is a bunch of manure. Maybe the context is that Bill's not an idiot and maximized the results for 20 years. Maybe the context is that a 71 year old HC/GM isn't the long term solution. Maybe the context is Bill's coaching tree is riddled with failures in the HC position.

Again, if you want to criticize the last three years, I get it. But those years in Cleveland he put together a solid football team, won a playoff game, and appeared poised to take another step forward until the rug got pulled out. If you watched the documentary, you’d realize that. Had the team not moved and that last year had gone differently, it obviously changes things.

I get it, and I wasn’t happy about last years debacle and put that solely on him since those were his decisions. Clearly, this year is a key one for both him and Mac and it’ll certainly play a big role in how he’s viewed moving forward.

 

[Ian]

That’s how I see it. Bill wasn’t ready for prime time as a head coach back then. He had no track record and still came in with guns blazing at the media and his team. He still had to learn that it’s important to have good relationships with his players and his peers. Might sound crazy to say it but is there really a big difference between Matt Patricia and Joe Judge today and BB back then?

I think the last 3 seasons have proven that having a great coach is good but having great players especially the greatest at the most important position is much better. Having both as we did is obviously the best

Great players can carry a JAG coach a long way but a great coach can’t do the same for a mediocre team. Hence BB’s losing record minus the GOAT.

They’ve still been the same team in terms of being competitive against top teams, being in positions to win, etc. That’s been his Hallmark. The challenge has been they haven’t been able to make a few plays here and there and flip a bunch of those games they’ve lost the last few years. Obviously, Brady played a big role in that part of things previously.

When they start getting blown out, you know it’s time. We’re definitely not quite there yet.

 

[sb1]

They’ve still been the same team in terms of being competitive against top teams, being in positions to win, etc. That’s been his Hallmark. The challenge has been they haven’t been able to make a few plays here and there and flip a bunch of those games they’ve lost the last few years. Obviously, Brady played a big role in that part of things previously.

When they start getting blown out, you know it’s time. We’re definitely not quite there yet.

Very true. I don't think any coach can do a whole lot with a team that lacked talent which the 2020 Pats did.

But I think last season was easily BB's worst coached season here in NE. Tbh that debacle really hurt his standing with me and for the first time in the BB era I think coaching brought this team down from what it should have been. Great football mind but sometimes purposely or not goes out of his way to prove he's smarter than his peers. That kind of thinking is also why Spygate happened.

I'd say there's probably not as big of a difference between a good team and a bad team as there might be in other sports. The 2000 Patriots lost 9 of their 11 games by one score or less which could mean a play here or there.

 

[sb1]

Again, if you want to criticize the last three years, I get it. But those years in Cleveland he put together a solid football team, won a playoff game, and appeared poised to take another step forward until the rug got pulled out. If you watched the documentary, you’d realize that. Had the team not gotten sold and that last year had gone differently, it obviously changes things.

I get it, and I wasn’t happy about last years debacle and put that solely on him since those were his decisions. Clearly, this year is a key one for both him and Mac and it’ll certainly play a big role in how he’s viewed moving forward.

That defense was almost championship contending level. And I don't think any coach would have looked good in those circumstances after the plug was pulled on the franchise.

But I still don't think BB was ready as an NFL coach back then. He had a lot to learn. There's a reason why they chose to go in a different direction when they became the Ravens. IMO

 

[Ian]

That defense was almost championship contending level. And I don't think any coach would have looked good in those circumstances after the plug was pulled on the franchise.

But I still don't think BB was ready as an NFL coach back then. He had a lot to learn. There's a reason why they chose to go in a different direction when they became the Ravens. IMO

He also had an incredible staff. @h0c2000 mentioned the coaching tree, I think that was the group that had the guys who were most successful later on. As he said, that’s certainly been a little more limited since then.

 

[p8ryts]

Very true. I don't think any coach can do a whole lot with a team that lacked talent which the 2020 Pats did.

But I think last season was easily BB's worst coached season here in NE. Tbh that debacle really hurt his standing with me and for the first time in the BB era I think coaching brought this team down from what it should have been. Great football mind but sometimes purposely or not goes out of his way to prove he's smarter than his peers. That kind of thinking is also why Spygate happened.

I'd say there's probably not as big of a difference between a good team and a bad team as there might be in other sports. The 2000 Patriots lost 9 of their 11 games by one score or less which could mean a play here or there.

Not the worst coached season. The mistake Pats fans make is blaming it all on Matt and Joe. Players resisted week one. Players made mistakes that cost them key games.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

And he’s definitely under some pressure to hopefully get into the playoffs and advance. But it’s been just three years without Tom, so this year is key after what happened last year.

People know the context of the Cleveland years…I don’t get why people keep using those against him. That’s like holding the years Pete Carroll coached the Jets against him. Like Belichick, Carroll learned from his mistakes and eventually became a better coach.

With these NFL players, there is some development at play with a rare late bloomer, but for the most part the fans know young talent when they see it. Screw the record... they're far away from being a contender. Let's see some exciting young core players to build around for the future and stop stretching our imagination that many of these underwhelming, average draft picks are actually going to be great. I just want to see some better player development via draft, free agency, or however they do it.

 

[raduray]

More than you have.

If my performance at my job had matched Belichick's over the past few years at his, I'd have been gone.

 

[raduray]

Not the worst coached season. The mistake Pats fans make is blaming it all on Matt and Joe. Players resisted week one. Players made mistakes that cost them key games.

Isn't player resistance an indictment of the coaching?

 

[rkarp1]

I would love to see Bill coach the team, with some one other than him as GM.
Bill seems unwilling to acknowledge the league has changed to a passing league, and has not done enough to upgrade the offense with skill position players or OL men, in spite of spending a boat load of money.
As the league devalues ST, Bill continues to pour resources in ST only players.
Is Bill too stubborn to change? does he not see the changes? does he not agree that the league is changing?
imo, still the best on the field coach in the league. as GM, a lot to be desired the past 5 years or so, with draft picks, free agency and contracts.
I feel the questions are warranted given the results on the field the past 50 games or so.

 

[203Pat]

When Belichick starts talking about players that haven’t been on the team in years on the Weds before that week’s game, we can start truly comparing him to Jeff Fisher.

That will go down as the most egregious thing I’ve ever heard and ownership should have absolutely fired him immediately. To not even be aware of the current roster at that point in the week shows you how grossly ill-prepared he was…that was unreal.

My Jeff Fisher comp was more due to the fact we seem to be going around .500 every year like Fisher did with the Rams. Bill at 80 years old will be a better coach than Fisher in his prime.

 

[Chevy]

And he’s definitely under some pressure to hopefully get into the playoffs and advance. But it’s been just three years without Tom, so this year is key after what happened last year.

People know the context of the Cleveland years…I don’t get why people keep using those against him. That’s like holding the years Pete Carroll coached the Jets against him. Like Belichick, Carroll learned from his mistakes and eventually became a better coach.

Not only that, BB's Browns were building up steadily, right until ownership yanked the entire house out from under them with the move.

 

[203Pat]

And he’s definitely under some pressure to hopefully get into the playoffs and advance. But it’s been just three years without Tom, so this year is key after what happened last year.

People know the context of the Cleveland years…I don’t get why people keep using those against him. That’s like holding the years Pete Carroll coached the Jets against him. Like Belichick, Carroll learned from his mistakes and eventually became a better coach.

I don't hold anything from Cleveland against him. That might as well have been another lifetime but we just seem to be straddling the line of rebuild/piecing it together since Brady left. There hasn't seemed to be a vision in any of the seasons since and this year seems like more of the same.

 

[Ian]

With these NFL players, there is some development at play with a rare late bloomer, but for the most part the fans know young talent when they see it. Screw the record... they're far away from being a contender. Let's see some exciting young core players to build around for the future and stop stretching our imagination that many of these underwhelming, average draft picks are actually going to be great. I just want to see some better player development via draft, free agency, or however they do it.

Interesting. Who don’t you like?

 

[Ian]

I don't hold anything from Cleveland against him. That might as well have been another lifetime but we just seem to be straddling the line of rebuild/piecing it together since Brady left. There hasn't seemed to be a vision in any of the seasons since and this year seems like more of the same.

Obviously, 2021 was the trajectory we were hoping and last year erased it. Had they taken a step forward, we’d probably be having a different conversation.

They didn’t, so - understandably - we’re not.

This year is going to be key for him. No question about it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Interesting. Who don’t you like?

It's more that I don't love anyone.