Yet another Brady argument thread

[All3Phases]

Common sense.
Are you telling me if Brady chose to stay the 2019 team minus large reductions wins a SB or the 2021 team, starting deeper in the hole and having minimal money to spend wins a SB. You are lying if you say that’s possible.

Do I think an MVP qb on the 2021 team could’ve been competitive? Yep, common sense

 

[Ian]

In 2020, they would’ve had -25, so they kept the qb over Thuney who was not a long term option regardless, he was 14. So you’re down to 39 mil over two years in an offseason where they set a spending record. Definitely ruined their building chances

I also fall under the group of "they should have ridden that horse into the ground" and kept him, but the only way it would have worked would have been continuing to kick the can down the road with a long-term extension, which would have caught up with them eventually. So rather than get 1-2 more good years out of him (which ended up being the reality) and then end up with a solid year but then 1-2 years of cap issues, the year-to-year approach they went to made it where it only really hurt them cap-wise for one season.

That was clearly Belichick's call and it obviously sucks for how Brady was treated, no doubt, but these things historically don't typically end the way people always want them to with that caliber of player and the $$ involved. And no, the $$ wasn't that bad, but it's lower when it's pushed out longer, which was ultimately the issue. They way they did it allowed them to get him off the books faster.

At the end of the day, you're not talking about a 35-38-year-old player. You're talking about a guy who was at the very end in his 40s or whatever, and honestly, good for him for going to Tampa and getting a ring. People are mad about it due to the fact he didn't finish out his career here, but let's be honest, that one season ended up cementing his legacy as the best ever, and it also slammed the door on the nonsense with Rodgers, Manning, and even Mahomes (for now).

Meanwhile, the Patriots spent one season in cap jail instead of more than one, and they're essentially into a process that was coming eventually. Like @Steve102 said earlier, be happy the last 20 years happened, but also be happy Brady had the chance to really shut everybody up.

Once Brady was gone, someone like a Mac Jones was going to be here eventually, and anyone hoping for an elite QB to just fall into their laps and keep things rolling is just being unrealistic. It just almost never happens and he could have easily landed elsewhere and we might have missed out on it. But they can potentially contend with a decent QB and the type of defense they have now. They're just not going to dominate people the way they did. It's going to be ugly and difficult at times. So people just need to flip the page and try and enjoy the ride instead of pining for the past.

It's over. So rather than drive yourself nuts and get mad, try and watch the highlight video when they show it on opening night and be thankful this happened in a time where we were all front and center, rather than reading or having to watch archive footage. We were lucky, and I certainly enjoyed all of it.

 

[All3Phases]

I also fall under the group of "they should have ridden that horse into the ground" and kept him, but the only way it would have worked would have been continuing to kick the can down the road with a long-term extension, which would have caught up with them eventually. So rather than get 1-2 more good years out of him (which ended up being the reality) and then end up with a solid year but then 1-2 years of cap issues, the year-to-year approach they went to made it where it only really hurt them cap-wise for one season.

I don’t think they’re in that great of a spot now, so sacrificing another couple years wouldn't have put them in a much worse spot imo. Also, my argument is not that they made the right or wrong move. Based on their history, it was a move they’d make 100/100 times

That was clearly Belichick's call and it obviously sucks for how Brady was treated, no doubt, but these things historically don't typically end the way people always want them to with that caliber of player and the $$ involved. And no, the $$ wasn't that bad, but it's lower when it's pushed out longer, which was ultimately the issue.

Even if they didn’t extend him 25/year for 2 years is a bargain for the caliber qb they would be getting. Also, let’s pretend they signed him earlier for a longer period, which clearly would’ve been a possibility. Never know how the results would’ve been, based on history, they would’ve been competitive

At the end of the day, you're not talking about a 35-38-year-old player. You're talking about a guy who was at the very end in his 40s or whatever, and honestly, good for him for going to Tampa and getting a ring. People are mad about it due to the fact he didn't finish out his career here, but let's be honest, that one season ended up cementing his legacy as the best ever, and it also slammed the door on the nonsense with Rodgers, Manning, and even Mahomes (for now).

Meanwhile, the Patriots spent one season in cap jail instead of more than one, and they're essentially into a process that was coming eventually. Like @Steve102 said earlier, be happy the last 20 years happened, but also be happy Brady had the chance to really shut everybody up.

I’m very happy, I just push back on that notion that he willingly chose to leave as if he had 2 equal proposals in front of him

Once Brady was gone, someone like a Mac Jones was going to be here eventually, and anyone hoping for an elite QB to just fall into their laps and keep things rolling is just being unrealistic. It just almost never happens and he could have easily landed elsewhere and we might have missed out on it. But they can potentially contend with a decent QB and the type of defense they have now. They're just not going to dominate people the way they did. It's going to be ugly and difficult at times. So people just need to flip the page and try and enjoy the ride instead of pining for the past.

I agree

It's over. So rather than drive yourself nuts and get mad, try and watch the highlight video when they show it on opening night and be thankful this happened in a time where we were all front and center, rather than reading or having to watch archive footage. We were lucky, and I certainly enjoyed all of it.

But it’s more fun to pass the work day like this!

 

[Ian]

I don’t think they’re in that great of a spot now, so sacrificing another couple years wouldn't have put them in a much worse spot imo. Also, my argument is not that they made the right or wrong move. Based on their history, it was a move they’d make 100/100 times

My point is it was coming eventually, and with this in the rearview, we're splitting hairs on when. And you may not love him, but a Mac Jones type of player was who was coming next and he's actually better than anyone else who would have been, or has been (so far), available in that pick 10-20 range.

Even if they didn’t extend him 25/year for 2 years is a bargain for the caliber qb they would be getting. Also, let’s pretend they signed him earlier for a longer period, which clearly would’ve been a possibility. Never know how the results would’ve been, based on history, they would’ve been competitive

Again, see above. And as I mentioned, you're better off with him getting that ring in Tampa from a legacy standpoint. So he walked away a winner and even if it was 7-rings here, the pundits still would have questioned him.

I’m very happy, I just push back on that notion that he willingly chose to leave as if he had 2 equal proposals in front of him

He left based on what led up to it (them not giving him a longer-term deal). I get it, and I understand it and I'm sure Bill didn't enjoy it but he did have a team to think about and was bracing them for the inevitable. But had they done it the way most of us had wanted, the end result would have been more complicated $$-wise.

Again, I wish they kept him, but it's been nearly 4-years. The team is still the team and that's what we have in front of us. They've got a really good defense and if they can put up points at the same clip they did in 2021, they've got a shot to make it interesting.

But it’s more fun to pass the work day like this!

I get it, but it's time to put this one in the barn. It's been almost 4-years and none of us can change the past. All we can do is appreciate it.

 

[Ring 6]

Do I think an MVP qb on the 2021 team could’ve been competitive? Yep, common sense

It wouldn’t have been the same team.

 

[All3Phases]

It wouldn’t have been the same team.

I asked you to do the math and you refuse. To think they would’ve had a drastically different roster because of a MVP caliber qb making 25$ mil is pretty great

 

[Ring 6]

I asked you to do the math and you refuse.

It’s not a math problem. If you pay Brady 50 million over those 2 years you have 50 million less to spend to rebuild an aging and dwindling roster. I can make the personnell decisions that would have caused in hindsight but 50 mill in cap space is an amount that would decimate a roster.

 

[All3Phases]

My point is it was coming eventually, and with this in the rearview, we're splitting hairs on when. And you may not love him, but a Mac Jones type of player was who was coming next and he's actually better than anyone else who would have been, or has been (so far), available in that pick 10-20 range.

Don’t disagree

Again, see above. And as I mentioned, you're better off with him getting that ring in Tampa from a legacy standpoint. So he walked away a winner and even if it was 7-rings here, the pundits still would have questioned him.

I’m not really arguing what was better for his legacy

He left based on what led up to it (them not giving him a longer-term deal). I get it, and I understand it and I'm sure Bill didn't enjoy it but he did have a team to think about and was bracing them for the inevitable. But had they done it the way most of us had wanted, the end result would have been more complicated $$-wise.

We agree

Again, I wish they kept him, but it's been nearly 4-years. The team is still the team and that's what we have in front of us. They've got a really good defense and if they can put up points at the same clip they did in 2021, they've got a shot to make it interesting.

Don’t disagree; I didn’t start the conversation

I get it, but it's time to put this one in the barn. It's been almost 4-years and none of us can change the past. All we can do is appreciate it.

I certainly appreciate it

 

[All3Phases]

It’s not a math problem. If you pay Brady 50 million over those 2 years you have 50 million less to spend to rebuild an aging and dwindling roster. I can make the personnell decisions that would have caused in hindsight but 50 mill in cap space is an amount that would decimate a roster.

Again, they franchised thuney in 2020 for 14$ mil. Had no intention on signing him to a mega deal. That could've been an obvious player that would be deducted as well as a big chunk of the money. Like you said some different personnel moves would’ve been made as alternative, wouldn't you have faith in BB to make the right ones with still, a lot of money? It certainly wouldn’t decimate the roster

 

[Ring 6]

Again, they franchised thuney in 2020 for 14$ mil. Had no intention on signing him to a mega deal. That could've been an obvious player that would be deducted as well as a big chunk of the money. Like you said some different personnel moves would’ve been made as alternative, wouldn't you have faith in BB to make the right ones with still, a lot of money? It certainly wouldn’t decimate the roster

So your argument is bring Brady back and get rid of his best OL?

The 2019 team was coming apart at the seams. Even with Brady walking away they went backwards due to the cap. The 2021 cap space was needed to replace the majority of the roster. Over 50% of the snaps played in 2021 were by players not here in 2020. That took 60 million in cap space. Paying Brady 50 (both years went into 2021 because of the opt out situation ) would have made such a rebuild impossible. They would have had to let players walk and sign a bunch of cheap slugs. That’s how it works. Judon certainly wouldn’t be here.

 

[Ring 6]

I also fall under the group of "they should have ridden that horse into the ground" and kept him, but the only way it would have worked would have been continuing to kick the can down the road with a long-term extension, which would have caught up with them eventually. So rather than get 1-2 more good years out of him (which ended up being the reality) and then end up with a solid year but then 1-2 years of cap issues, the year-to-year approach they went to made it where it only really hurt them cap-wise for one season.

That was clearly Belichick's call and it obviously sucks for how Brady was treated, no doubt, but these things historically don't typically end the way people always want them to with that caliber of player and the $$ involved. And no, the $$ wasn't that bad, but it's lower when it's pushed out longer, which was ultimately the issue. They way they did it allowed them to get him off the books faster.

At the end of the day, you're not talking about a 35-38-year-old player. You're talking about a guy who was at the very end in his 40s or whatever, and honestly, good for him for going to Tampa and getting a ring. People are mad about it due to the fact he didn't finish out his career here, but let's be honest, that one season ended up cementing his legacy as the best ever, and it also slammed the door on the nonsense with Rodgers, Manning, and even Mahomes (for now).

Meanwhile, the Patriots spent one season in cap jail instead of more than one, and they're essentially into a process that was coming eventually. Like @Steve102 said earlier, be happy the last 20 years happened, but also be happy Brady had the chance to really shut everybody up.

Once Brady was gone, someone like a Mac Jones was going to be here eventually, and anyone hoping for an elite QB to just fall into their laps and keep things rolling is just being unrealistic. It just almost never happens and he could have easily landed elsewhere and we might have missed out on it. But they can potentially contend with a decent QB and the type of defense they have now. They're just not going to dominate people the way they did. It's going to be ugly and difficult at times. So people just need to flip the page and try and enjoy the ride instead of pining for the past.

It's over. So rather than drive yourself nuts and get mad, try and watch the highlight video when they show it on opening night and be thankful this happened in a time where we were all front and center, rather than reading or having to watch archive footage. We were lucky, and I certainly enjoyed all of it.

At the time I also felt keep Brady and hope was the way to go. But that was thinking with my heart and as it played out if Brady had chosen to stay the time it would take for this team to rebuild would have been beyond his shelf life.
Being able to get Jones on the field and developing had the team further along. Spending 85 million over the last 3 years on guys who are still here to help has the tram in better shape than buying Brady’s twilight years stick in mediocrity and starting all over now.
If it’s about championships it worked out for the best, if it’s about good feelings or it’s about proclaiming how your way would have been great, then there is lament.

 

[All3Phases]

So your argument is bring Brady back and get rid of his best OL?

He wasn’t on the roster in 2021 Ring, they got rid of him regardless

The 2019 team was coming apart at the seams. Even with Brady walking away they went backwards due to the cap. The 2021 cap space was needed to replace the majority of the roster. Over 50% of the snaps played in 2021 were by players not here in 2020. That took 60 million in cap space. Paying Brady 50 (both years went into 2021 because of the opt out situation ) would have made such a rebuild impossible. They would have had to let players walk and sign a bunch of cheap slugs. That’s how it works. Judon certainly wouldn’t be here.

This is you speculating because you can’t find a way to remove 39$ mil guaranteed over 2 years to swap with Brady’s contract. An MVP player at 25$ mil per year, which is cheap, would not decimate the roster in the slightest

 

[Ian]

He wasn’t on the roster in 2021 Ring, they got rid of him regardless

This is you speculating because you can’t find a way to remove 39$ mil guaranteed over 2 years to swap with Brady’s contract. An MVP player at 25$ mil per year, which is cheap, would not decimate the roster in the slightest

Not decimate, but someone (several) wouldn’t have been here. They would have had to target less expensive players in several positions which essentially makes his point. Wouldn’t have been the same roster. The question I guess would have been could they have signed Henry and Bourne and dealt without Agholor and Smith. Obviously hindsight makes that a maybe.

Doesn’t change the fact it’s - again - still not the same group of players.

 

[All3Phases]

Not decimate, but someone (several) wouldn’t have been here. They would have had to target less expensive players in several positions which essentially makes his point. Wouldn’t have been the same roster. The question I guess would have been could they have signed Henry and Bourne and dealt without Agholor and Smith. Obviously hindsight makes that a maybe.

Agree totally, and that was my point, you’re losing 2 guys who weren’t very good and didn’t contribute much, and replaced them with an mvp caliber quarterback. To me that’s an upgrade. To your point, and I said this…it’d be up to the coach to target and pick the better players with still, a lot of money. I trust him to do that

In your example, which I gave earlier, Jonnu and ahgolor alone basically make up the Brady guaranteed money if he signed 2/50 Fully gtd.

Doesn’t change the fact it’s - again - still not the same roster.

I don’t think I said it was the same roster, I think much of their core would’ve remained The same, and added Brady. There was a high possibility that they would’ve been very competitive with Brady

 

[Ring 6]

He wasn’t on the roster in 2021 Ring, they got rid of him regardless

This is you speculating because you can’t find a way to remove 39$ mil guaranteed over 2 years to swap with Brady’s contract. An MVP player at 25$ mil per year, which is cheap, would not decimate the roster in the slightest

Brady would have come back in 2020 and in return we would have let his best OL walk.
The 39,000,000 less in 2021 would have completely changed the free agency. The majority of the players brought in to fill the holes, would not have been brought in.
They rebuilt the team with 60 mill to get the team they put on the field. The team they would have built with 20 mill would not have been close.

 

[Ring 6]

Agree totally, and that was my point, you’re losing 2 guys who weren’t very good and didn’t contribute much, and replaced them with an mvp caliber quarterback. To me that’s an upgrade. To your point, and I said this…it’d be up to the coach to target and pick the better players with still, a lot of money. I trust him to do that

In your example, which I gave earlier, Jonnu and ahgolor alone basically make up the Brady guaranteed money if he signed 2/50 Fully gtd.

I don’t think I said it was the same roster, I think much of their core would’ve remained The same, and added Brady. There was a high possibility that they would’ve been very competitive with Brady

Smith and agholors 2021 cap numbers combined were 12.5 million. Not even a third of the amount that wouldn’t have been available.

 

[Ring 6]

Agree totally, and that was my point, you’re losing 2 guys who weren’t very good and didn’t contribute much, and replaced them with an mvp caliber quarterback. To me that’s an upgrade. To your point, and I said this…it’d be up to the coach to target and pick the better players with still, a lot of money. I trust him to do that

In your example, which I gave earlier, Jonnu and ahgolor alone basically make up the Brady guaranteed money if he signed 2/50 Fully gtd.

I don’t think I said it was the same roster, I think much of their core would’ve remained The same, and added Brady. There was a high possibility that they would’ve been very competitive with Brady

They had 60 million. We typically account for about 12 million for the rookies, practice squad, in season acquisitions etc
So in reality they had 48 million to spend on adding free agents. On a team where 50% of the snaps were played by players not on the team in 2020.
In your scenario they would have had 10 mill for the entire free agent class that they spent 48 mill on. They would have missed out on 75% of the player value they added.

 

[All3Phases]

Smith and agholors 2021 cap numbers combined were 12.5 million. Not even a third of the amount that wouldn’t have been available.

“Cap Space can be maneuvered in a number of different ways”- Bill Belichick. Their guaranteed money was basically equal, Brady’s cap number in 2021 was barely 10$ mil

 

[All3Phases]

They had 60 million. We typically account for about 12 million for the rookies, practice squad, in season acquisitions etc
So in reality they had 48 million to spend on adding free agents. On a team where 50% of the snaps were played by players not on the team in 2020.
In your scenario they would have had 10 mill for the entire free agent class that they spent 48 mill on. They would have missed out on 75% of the player value they added.

Are you talking about guaranteed dollars here? They spent $163 mil in guaranteed dollars on unrestricted FA

 

[Ring 6]

Not decimate, but someone (several) wouldn’t have been here. They would have had to target less expensive players in several positions which essentially makes his point. Wouldn’t have been the same roster. The question I guess would have been could they have signed Henry and Bourne and dealt without Agholor and Smith. Obviously hindsight makes that a maybe.

Doesn’t change the fact it’s - again - still not the same group of players.

Yes decimate. They had 60 mill in cap space, about 48 usable. If we assume that Brady signed for 2 years and make the extraordinary assumption that with Brady they would have no longer wanted Thuney that turns 48 usable into 10. We signed enough new players that they played half the snaps so half our snaps would have been played on a 10 mill budget instead of 48 mill.
It would have been as different as night and day.