BB THE GOAT

[RobertWeathers]

My one issue with Tom is he never went out and took control of any of the Super Bowl wins early and built a big lead ... it always took time - it felt like - to get going. Would have loved just one win that didn't come down to the end. I'd probably have a little more hair on my head

At the same time, it's obviously not about style points - a win is a win. But still, would have been nice to have them have been a little less stressful.

Well, i'm not sure I blame Tom for that but hell, even the "comfortable" 24-21 win vs Philly in 04 the Iggles had the ball w/ under a minute to go and could have tied/won it with some big plays...

 

[PatsFanSince74]

My one issue with Tom is he never went out and took control of any of the Super Bowl wins early and built a big lead ... it always took time - it felt like - to get going. Would have loved just one win that didn't come down to the end. I'd probably have a little more hair on my head

At the same time, it's obviously not about style points - a win is a win. But still, would have been nice to have them have been a little less stressful.

In retrospect, the stress made the biggest wins all the more sweet...but, yeah, I could have done without hoping #4 wouldn't go "Wide Right" in 2002...I could have done without needing Malcolm's miracle against Seattle...I could certainly have done without 3--28...just one blowout at the beginning of February would have been nice...probably would have consumed a lot less Guacamole, Nachos and Bourbon too...

 

[TheRainMaker]

My one issue with Tom is he never went out and took control of any of the Super Bowl wins early and built a big lead ... it always took time - it felt like - to get going. Would have loved just one win that didn't come down to the end. I'd probably have a little more hair on my head

At the same time, it's obviously not about style points - a win is a win. But still, would have been nice to have them have been a little less stressful.

It was odd that every Super Bowl the Pats were in, it was always a struggle. Hell, in in playoff games they would struggle against inferior competition.

The closest to them building a real lead was in 2003, until Tom threw an interception at or near the end zone when he had the Panthers dead to rights. They looked defeated and overmatched, but that pick flipped their demeanor 180.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

That is definitely sensible.. as I believe Drew had just gotten a new deal right?

Something BB and his staff had to see in Brady that they took him.. we'll never know until Brady's HOF appearance.. I suppose

we'll have to wait for the books to be written (and hope that they're honest) but my own speculation, completely uninformed by any "facts," is that BB was never sold on Bledsoe as a Montana or Starr or Unitas kind of QB...but I do think BB even said once that Brady outperformed Bledsoe in training camp in 2001 but i guess he didn't have the standing (yet) to dis the bucks his new bosses had given Drew.

 

[sb1]

My one issue with Tom is he never went out and took control of any of the Super Bowl wins early and built a big lead ... it always took time - it felt like - to get going. Would have loved just one win that didn't come down to the end. I'd probably have a little more hair on my head

At the same time, it's obviously not about style points - a win is a win. But still, would have been nice to have them have been a little less stressful.

I know it was a defensive game and the score didn't reflect it but I felt the Pats were in control of SB53 for most of the game and didn't really feel like we were in jeopardy at any time. Thought it was only a matter of time before Brady made a play and he did, the long one to Gronk to tee it up for Sony.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

If life provided two vocations, he would have been a mountaineer.

Parcells always enjoyed the climb instead of the view.

that's really perceptive...he enjoyed the turnaround...and was so great at it

 

[RobertWeathers]

In retrospect, the stress made the biggest wins all the more sweet...but, yeah, I could have done without hoping #4 wouldn't go "Wide Right" in 2002...I could have done without needing Malcolm's miracle against Seattle...I could certainly have done without 3--28...just one blowout at the beginning of February would have been nice...probably would have consumed a lot less Guacamole, Nachos and Bourbon too...

Dude i'd like to think i'm pretty disciplined in how much and what I eat/drink and rarely eat sweets but that Falcons SB I lost complete control.

Right after they went up 21-0, I downed 4 big-ass frosted chocolate raspberry cupcakes and stopped after they made it 28-20.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Imagine Parcells with an elite QB and in charge of player personnel. The talent he brought to NE from 1993-1996 alone was insane. He brought talent to NYJ and made them respectable without at QB. Then he went to Dallas, brought in a ton of talent and made them respectable. Parcells easily takes that 2007 team to the Super Bowl had Jerry Jones not want full control of player personnel. That's the only reason why Parcells left after the 2006 season - Jerry wanted to be in the spotlight.

Saying that Parcells wasn't important to the Patriots future success is being disingenuous at this point.

Absolutely. People don't think a lot of Jim Orthwein, but we forget that he hired Parcells over Mike Ditka and Dan Reeves...Parcells turned the ship around...yeah he was a jerk in how he left, but without Bill Parcells I don't think the parts would have been in place to build the dynasty...

 

[Steve102]

Dude i'd like to think i'm pretty disciplined in how much and what I eat/drink and rarely eat sweets but that Falcons SB I lost complete control.

Right after they went up 21-0, I downed 4 big-ass frosted chocolate raspberry cupcakes and stopped after they made it 28-20.

I will always remember that we didn't drink in the first half, and then poured bourbon at the half. They got it to 28-12, and I sat down on the floor in front of my chair. I must have had my game face on, because my wife asked what I was doing.

"Coaching. They ain't done yet. They have to be perfect from here, but it's not over."

That was their finest moment. The Rams II SB was the cherry on top. Extra. One for prosperity. I will never forget how I felt that night, right there with SB36.

 

[Ring 6]

Dude i'd like to think i'm pretty disciplined in how much and what I eat/drink and rarely eat sweets but that Falcons SB I lost complete control.

Right after they went up 21-0, I downed 4 big-ass frosted chocolate raspberry cupcakes and stopped after they made it 28-20.

I spent the whole second half doing math in my head to convince myself if they scored every drive they wouldn’t run out of time.
I never lost hope.

 

[sb1]

Regarding the original topic BB is the GOAT head coach. But I think there are good arguments on both the Yes he is and No he isn't sides.

Yes he is:
- Rings. It's true that championships are won by players. But I think Bill stands out from his peers in one way. He coached two dynasties. Won a bunch of rings early on in his coaching career with the Patriots... then another bunch of rings a decade+ later. None of his all time great coaching peers did anything like that. Noll won a bunch in the 70's then zero in the back half of his career. Shula won 2 in 11 seasons then none in his final 15 seasons.
- Longetivity (although Kraft gets some of the credit for that)
- Nobody better at identifying teams strengths and weaknesses and exploiting them matchup by matchup.
- Nobody better at paying close attention to detail.
- The Patriots have had subpar personnel on defense... but have they really had terrible as in near the bottom of the league defense at any time during Bill's career? No. That's coaching and getting the most of what you have. Only 1 coach could get away with a defense having the likes of Julian Edelman and Troy Brown and both those guys being a positive instead of a negative on that side of the ball.
- Similar to the above, the Pats have never had a season where they cratered under Bill's watch even when they probably should have (2008, 2020, 2022 come to mind)
- The GOAT said he is. Peyton Manning said the same thing adding that BB is the best coach he ever competed against. That means a lot in this debate.
- He did all this while also being GM.

No:
- Doesn't have the most wins (yet) - Shula does
- Doesn't have the best record - Madden does
- Coaching tree isn't nearly as successful as some of his peers among the all time great coaches. Great coaches should create great coaches and some of Bill's peers tbh are lapping him in this area.
- Regarding BB without Brady - the argument shouldn't be that he's less successful without Brady. The argument to make on this side IMO is the the fact BB had a trump card his peers didn't have - the greatest QB of all time. A guy who's not just GOAT QB but an offensive savant mind that couldn't be paired any better with Bill's defensive mind. In the salary cap and parity era having the GOAT at the QB position that in today's game is more important than the others is a difference maker.
- Tries to be the smartest guy in the room sometimes to his team's detriment. Like last season's coaching setup, the Butler decision in SB52 and also the spygate incident.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I spent the whole second half doing math in my head to convince myself if they scored every drive they wouldn’t run out of time.
I never lost hope.

One of my teenagers kept saying they could still come back so not to stomp on her dreams I just stuffed my mouth w/ cupcakes and stayed quiet...hoping.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I will always remember that we didn't drink in the first half, and then poured bourbon at the half. They got it to 28-12, and I sat down on the floor in front of my chair. I must have had my game face on, because my wife asked what I was doing.

"Coaching. They ain't done yet. They have to be perfect from here, but it's not over."

That was their finest moment. The Rams II SB was the cherry on top. Extra. One for prosperity. I will never forget how I felt that night, right there with SB36.

I sat on the floor during the SB 42 Seymour holding/Asante butterfingers/Tyree drive.....

Never again.

 

[sb1]

I sat on the floor during the SB 42 Seymour holding/Asante butterfingers/Tyree drive.....

Never again.

I couldn't sleep. Work was just a blur the next day. Ugh.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I couldn't sleep. Work was just a blur the next day. Ugh.

I have a strongbox which holds personal items, etc...

In it I have a SB 42 gold commemorative coin. I forget how I acquired it. I def didn't buy it.

15 years later I have no idea what to do with it. I figure i'll wait another 30 years and maybe i'll be worth a grand or so. I hate that thing.

 

[Ian]

I couldn't sleep. Work was just a blur the next day. Ugh.

I sat on the floor during the SB 42 Seymour holding/Asante butterfingers/Tyree drive.....

Never again.

That whole game felt surreal. When it was over, I remember just feeling completely numb and sitting there for the next how ever many hours staring at the screen and trying to distract myself by working to keep the server running until - I want to say it was almost 2:30am or something like that - before things finally died down. Finally hit me later in the morning after I woke back up and reality set in - just a gut punch.

That one will forever remain painful and it's annoying because NFL Network feels the need to replay that at least once or twice a month, it feels like.

 

[sb1]

That whole game felt surreal. When it was over, I remember just feeling completely numb and sitting there for the next how ever many hours staring at the screen and trying to distract myself by working to keep the server running until - I want to say it was almost 2:30am or something like that - before things finally died down. Finally hit me later in the morning after I woke back up and reality set in - just a gut punch.

That one will forever remain painful and it's annoying because NFL Network feels the need to replay that at least once or twice a month, it feels like.

I wasn't a member here at the time but I can imagine the moderation here was tough after the game while other fans got to kick us while we're down. The Patriots ESPN board was an unreadable trollfest for at least a week after the game.

 

[Calhoun44]

Ugg! Did this thread really just take the awful turn where we discuss the pain of SB 42? Can we talk about Malcolm Butler or Tom vs BB instead? Please? Anything except SB 42.

 

[Steve102]

I sat on the floor during the SB 42 Seymour holding/Asante butterfingers/Tyree drive.....

Never again.

I've been known to slide out of the chair when things get tense. It's not unusual for me. I did sit in my wife's chair for the Seattle SB. I was pretty much in a fetal position the whole time. While that might be the best "game", it was the most tense. I won't sit there again on game days.

I couldn't sleep. Work was just a blur the next day. Ugh.

That whole game felt surreal. When it was over, I remember just feeling completely numb and sitting there for the next how ever many hours staring at the screen and trying to distract myself by working to keep the server running until - I want to say it was almost 2:30am or something like that - before things finally died down. Finally hit me later in the morning after I woke back up and reality set in - just a gut punch.

That one will forever remain painful and it's annoying because NFL Network feels the need to replay that at least once or twice a month, it feels like.

In regards to the SB that must not be named, it was like someone died. I know I went thru a mourning period.

 

[Ian]

Ugg! Did this thread really just take the awful turn where we discuss the pain of SB 42? Can we talk about Malcolm Butler or Tom vs BB instead? Please? Anything except SB 42.

LOL, @RobertWeathers helped us out by inserting some cupcake talk in there, so that was cool. And "big-ass frosted chocolate raspberry cupcakes" no less. Sounds pretty amazing right about now.