BB THE GOAT

[All3Phases]

Then tell us. What is your argument? Because all you can continue to harp on is his record in Cleveland. That means, you believe he would have been a terrible coach without Brady - ie: he would have been a terrible coach for 20-years without Brady. Meanwhile, Brady would have still been Brady without him.

Coaching is elevated by a great quarterback, and great coaching only gets you so far when you dont have that.

The last three years since the divorce:

Tampa Bay: 13-4
New England: 7-9

Tampa Bay: 11-5
New England: 10-7

Tampa Bay: 8-9
New England: 8-9

Id say these numbers are a touch off, but lets just put it this way...One is 25-26, one playoff appearance 0 wins...The other is 37-19 with a SB MVP and is 5-2 in the playoffs. That is not similar in any way.

Literally a one-game difference the last two years.

Also, they went 13-4 and almost went to the NFCCG last year, so the last two years arent similar either.

And again, you and I have already argued the fact he won 11 games with Cassel in 2008 - which you dismissed. He won 10 games and went to the postseason with Mac, and won 11 games and won a playoff game with Testeverde.

Havent dismissed any of this, not sure why you keep saying it...This is included in his 170 game sample.

Yet you'll say "But Cleveland!"

Terrible - and ridiculous - argument.

I havent said "But Cleveland" once

Belichick without Brady. "But Cleveland!"

"But the 170 game sample!"

Brady without Belichick: [crickets].

37-19 SB MVP!

 

[All3Phases]

This is getting weaker and weaker by the minute.

What is weak about it? He built teams for 20 years and were consistently dominant, what was the common denominator? Vs now, when we are happy he makes a WC game?

 

[sb1]

Coaching is elevated by a great quarterback, and great coaching only gets you so far when you dont have that.

Yeah it's hard to disagree with this.

Peyton Manning took an inferior coach (Caldwell) to a Super Bowl.

 

[All3Phases]

Yeah it's hard to disagree with this.

Peyton Manning took an inferior coach (Caldwell) to a Super Bowl.

The counter would be, well he didnt win more super bowls...My argument to that would be, well he won 70% of his games over a decade plus long career and was mostly competitive each year, with multiple coaches.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That certainly doesnt help, but lets put it this way...Marty took over the 84 Browns as they were 1-7, finished the season 4-4 and then made the playoffs 4 years straight. It was not an impossible feat for a good coach.

Marty was a very good coach but hes not a GM. He got help from Ernie Accorsi who Modell brought on a consultant in 1984 and hired as Exec VP/GM in 1985. He picked the groceries which included grabbing franchise QB Bernie Kosar n the 1985 supplemental draft.

Sure, youd agree though that a some point, a sample as large as that tells a story though?

The sample size tells me Tom is a great QB and BB is a great teambuilder.

With Brady on the roster 100%, hes still a great coach and team builder....Again, the success doesnt show it though

Yes it does. He has a track record going back to 1991.

I dont think they deserve equal importance, thats probably why. Thats also not me saying, one deserves all the credit and one deserves none as well.

Thats the disagreement and we'll never agree. The franchise QB or the guy who acquired, developed, coached and played the QB and surrounded him with a culture, scheme and talent so he could thrive?

 

[Ring 6]

What is weak about it? He built teams for 20 years and were consistently dominant, what was the common denominator? Vs now, when we are happy he makes a WC game?

There isn’t one common denominator, that’s the point. There are 100s maybe 1000s of factors that go into the success of a team.

 

[All3Phases]

Marty was a very good coach but hes not a GM. He got help from Ernie Accorsi who Modell brought on a consultant in 1984 and hired as Exec VP/GM in 1985. He picked the groceries which included grabbing franchise QB Bernie Kosar n the 1985 supplemental draft.

So you admit that bringing the Browns in the 90s wasnt a Herculean feat?

The sample size tells me Tom is a great QB and BB is a great teambuilder.

Agree to both, lets put it this way...Team building is a lot harder when Brady isnt there

Yes it does. He has a track record going back to 1991.

Thats the disagreement and we'll never agree. The franchise QB or the guy who acquired, developed, coached and played the QB and surrounded him with a culture, scheme and talent so he could thrive?

We will have to agree to disagree here then, Hes had multiple opportunities to implement that same knowledge, coaching, culture, scheme and talent into other qbs and build his teams that way...And the results arent nearly the same

 

[All3Phases]

There isn’t one common denominator, that’s the point. There are 100s maybe 1000s of factors that go into the success of a team.

And there are 100s and 1000s of different factors from 03 to 04 and 04 to 05, etc etc...Yet they always remained excellent. Somehow

 

[Ian]

Coaching is elevated by a great quarterback, and great coaching only gets you so far when you dont have that.

Stating the obvious. But at the same time, elite QBs also only succeed so far without it.

You're saying over and over again Belichick would have been a mediocre coach without Brady, while stopping in 1995. Then you just repeat that you believe he was a mediocre coach thirty years ago and would have stayed a mediocre coach. It's beyond ridiculous.

 

[Wozzy]

Yeah it's hard to disagree with this.

Peyton Manning took an inferior coach (Caldwell) to a Super Bowl.

Caldwell was the last coach to have a winning record in Detroit… the NFL’s version of Siberia.

Also when Foles, Flacco and Dilfer won a ring… were they elevating bad coaches with superior play, or was the whole of a team simply greater than the sum of it’s parts?

 

[All3Phases]

Stating the obvious. But at the same time, elite QBs also only succeed so far without it.

You're saying over and over again Belichick would have been a mediocre coach without Brady, while stopping in 1995. Then you just repeat that you believe he was a mediocre coach thirty years ago and would have stayed a mediocre coach. It's beyond ridiculous.

Ian-You keep saying that I go back to his Cleveland years, I am including 170 games...Over 10 years, from the 90s to the 2020s. I dont believe he was a mediocre coach without Brady, results wise, he has been...in a large sample.

If he stayed in Cleveland instead of the team moving, or stuck with Bledsoe here in 2001...Who knows what happens. He couldve won 10 super bowls, Not predicting anything, just stating the records of the history that exists

 

[sb1]

Caldwell was the last coach to have a winning record in Detroit… the NFL’s version of Siberia.

Also when Foles, Flacco and Dilfer won a ring… were they elevating bad coaches with superior play, or was the whole of a team simply greater than the sum of it’s parts?

Indy was his first NFL HC job and he was something like a .400 HC in college. Wasn't a good coach at the time.

A great coach can make a team not be horrible... but I think you need great players more than a great coach to make a good team championship caliber. I think Bill would agree with that.

 

[RobertWeathers]

So you admit that bringing the Browns in the 90s wasnt a Herculean feat?

On what basis are you trying to convince me to admit something?

He took over a f-ed up 3-13 team and made it a playoff team. That is freaking hard and an accomplishment.

Agree to both, lets put it this way...Team building is a lot harder when Brady isnt there

Turning a team into a winner is hard - period.

We will have to agree to disagree here then, Hes had multiple opportunities to implement that same knowledge, coaching, culture, scheme and talent into other qbs and build his teams that way...And the results arent nearly the same

If it was easy anyone would do it. There is a reason some franchises are never good even when they draft franchise QBs.

 

[Ian]

I have removed @crawhammer and @All3Phases from this thread.

 

[Steve102]

I have removed @crawhammer and @All3Phases from this thread.

 

[sb1]

He took over a f-ed up 3-13 team and made it a playoff team. That is freaking hard and an accomplishment.

It is really hard.

As I said I think Cleveland Bill showed that there has to be more to what makes a coach great than just what goes on the field. Relationships matter. Case in point: Matt Patricia.

 

[Guts]

I have removed @crawhammer and @All3Phases from this thread.

Hmm they were extreme but there's two others who were extreme on the other end where QBs don't matter lol I got cussed out even for making a joke lmao

 

[RobertWeathers]

It is really hard.

As I said I think Cleveland Bill showed that there has to be more to what makes a coach great than just what goes on the field. Relationships matter. Case in point: Matt Patricia.

Spot on.

This is a really good article summerizing his time in CLE.

What Went Wrong For Bill Belichick In Cleveland (Complete Story)

Bill Belichick is considered by many as the greatest coach of all-time. So, why wasn't he successful in Cleveland? We give the complete story.

www.brownsnation.com

Basically the biggest change in BB when he got here was his improvement in collaboration and outreach to all levels of the organization.

 

[Ring 6]

And there are 100s and 1000s of different factors from 03 to 04 and 04 to 05, etc etc...Yet they always remained excellent. Somehow

And?
Here is an example. The 2019 team had no chance to win in the playoffs with Brady. If Brady is the only variable then why is that?
If it’s all about the QB why did they win no titles from 2005 through 2013?
You are, because you gave an agenda, trying to dismiss everything that goes into winning, 52 other players, the coaches, the competition, drafting, free agency, how a team fits together, it’s strengths and weaknesses, injuries, players having better or worse seasons, the salary cap, the age of the roster, luck, the state of the team based upon cap, age, decisions made in order to be successful now, or to build for later, players murdering people, getting a play in a close or not getting it, and a whole host of other things and saying all that’s different is the QB. It is just an obtuse outlook.

 

[Joker]

A3P is a movie star.....I did not know that...