BB THE GOAT

[Joker]

What about the Giants Super Bowls we lost? Tom Coughlin should be in the HOF.

But the mensa members here will tell us Eli Manning, who never led the NFL in yards, TD’s or QB Rating once… but who definitely led the league in interceptions three times, had the spirit of yahweh enter his body so he could play above himself… what’s the term, oh yeah like a “generational” talent… then after they won those two rings, he went back to being the 60% passer he was was his entire career.

Like Flacco, like Foles… the magic found them, then it was gone. Like leveling up on a video game just long enough to win a ring, then it disappeared.

It’s all very scientific…

THIS is not science....THIS is blatant CORRUPTION...

Giants Shaun O’Hara confirms he choked Richard Seymour on Eli Manning’s Super Bowl scramble

Ten years after the game, the New York Giants center admits that on the famous “Helmet Catch” play, he was choking Patriots defensive end Richard Seymour.

www.patspulpit.com

 

[Calhoun44]

As of today, all of his success as a coach is tied to Brady, and it’s not really deniable

This is 100% not true. I think you have overstated your case.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

No. What I have said is that Parcells entire career is not close to consideration as GOAT because he won 2 Sbs and also pointed out IN RESPONSE TO A CLAIM HE REBUILT 3 OTHER FRANCHISES that his results post NYG were mediocre.
I made no comment about belichick with or without a specific player or groups of players because it’s a silly argument and I am judging GOAT by the entirety of their career.

You say parcels results post NYG were mediocre, belichicks results without Brady are mediocre too then

Your last statement would be correct but I think you stole it from me

That was a quote issue on my cellphone because I wanted to write the response in the middle of your post , it was already late sorry

 

[All3Phases]

This is 100% not true. I think you have overstated your case.

I don’t believe so, but feel free to counter! Let me clarify as in coach I meant HC

 

[All3Phases]

5 and 13??????? In a 16 game season?Man..you are one nutso football fan.In fact I'll go as far as aver you to be pathological.
Brady's stats in the 2001 Super Bowl....READ THEM and then tell us how it was Brady with those pathetic stats or Bill Belchick's defensive game plan and Adam's leg that propelled the Pats to their first title.

5-11 in 2000 and 0-2 in 2001 until Brady took over =5-13. You can say Brady was nothing in 01. We will have to agree they conveniently went 11-3 once he started, and that the offense conveniently went from 16 ppg in 2000 under bledsoe to 24ppg in 01 under Brady!

 

[Wozzy]

This is 100% not true. I think you have overstated your case.

Brady had 20 years of top defenses, good offensive lines, good weapons, great special teams and great coaching... and Tom was responsible for all of it.

This kind of delusion can't be cured with anything but medication. He's hearing voices from the toaster, it's speaking to him.

 

[All3Phases]

Brady had 20 years of top defenses, good offensive lines, good weapons, great special teams and great coaching... and Tom was responsible for all of it.

This kind of delusion can't be cured with anything but medication. He's hearing voices from the toaster, it's speaking to him.

You’re mistaking me saying Brady was the head of the snake vs he did everything himself. You seem to be having a bit of a Meltdown here. Again, he’s the same coach, GM, coaching and putting together defenses and special team units for 10 years without Brady, why is he having such a hard time replicating his success? Having any success really

 

[Wozzy]

You’re mistaking me saying Brady was the head of the snake vs he did everything himself. You seem to be having a bit of a Meltdown here. Again, he’s the same coach, GM, coaching and putting together defenses and special team units for 10 years without Brady, why is he having such a hard time replicating his success? Having any success really

It's been three seasons since Brady left, it took one season alone to clear the cap space it took to play in 4 Super Bowls and win 3 of them at the end of Brady's run.

So that means it's been two seasons of competitive football, and BB was breaking in a rookie QB in year one and they made the playoffs. What was Tom's record his rookie year?

2022 was a wasted year, it was total hubris to think he could go without an offensive coordinator, or maybe he was holding out until the guy he wanted became available in Obie. Either way it took the Eagles 48 years to win a championship, there are twelve teams in the league who have never won a championship and they've been playing professional football for about a hundred years. There was a decade in between 2004 and 2014 where the Pats didn't win a championship... seems Tom had trouble replicating his success. He had trouble replicating his success after he won on a loaded handpicked team in 2020.

Entitled fans like you think winning Super Bowls is easy.... it's laughable. It's millennial disease. And I'm having a meltdown? You're on a one man crusade to tell us the coach who will retire with the most wins, rings in history sucks at his job. And a player... a player he drafted and developed btw, was responsible for all his success.

 

[sb1]

You’re mistaking me saying Brady was the head of the snake vs he did everything himself. You seem to be having a bit of a Meltdown here. Again, he’s the same coach, GM, coaching and putting together defenses and special team units for 10 years without Brady, why is he having such a hard time replicating his success? Having any success really

Starting at 1:20

If even arguably the greatest head coach of all time believes that it's the players who win games then I believe it too.

 

[All3Phases]

It's been three seasons since Brady left, it took one season alone to clear the cap space it took to play in 4 Super Bowls and win 3 of them at the end of Brady's run.

You are conveniently leaving out the other 7 years he’s coached without Brady

So that means it's been two seasons of competitive football, he was breaking in a rookie QB in year one and they made the playoffs.

That is part of his 80-90 record without, correct.

2022 was a wasted year, it was total hubris to think he could go without an offensive coordinator, or maybe he was holding out until the guy he wanted became available in Obie. Either way it took the Eagles 48 years to win a championship, there are twelve teams in the league who have never won a championship and they've been playing professional football for about a hundred years. There was a decade in between 2004 and 2014 where the Pats didn't win a championship... seems Tom had trouble replicating his success. He had trouble replicating his success after he won on a loaded handpicked team in 2020.

He went 37-19 with a Super Bowl mvp and was seconds away from a second NFCCG in 3 years, in the last 3 years of his career. Again, not the hill you want to die on

Entitled fans like you think winning Super Bowls is easy.... it's laughable. It's millennial disease. And I'm having a meltdown, you're on a one man crusade to tell us the coach who will retire with the most wins, rings in history sucks at his job. And a player... a player he drafted and developed, was responsible for all his success.

Incorrect, I think it’s very hard. I’d expect some success in 10 years though, with what you’d consider the greatest coach and team builder ever, I’m assuming?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Starting at 1:20

If even arguably the greatest head coach of all time believes that it's the players who win games then I believe it too.

C'mon. What are you guys actually debating? The criteria you guys have defined to determine who is more important- Tom or BB is warped and misguided.

Hes correct. Players win games on the field. No one debates that. Without great players teams are mediocre or suck. Every coach considered great has had losing seasons. Once they assemble a great team, they win.

Guys like BB, Noll, Walsh, Lombardi, Shula Reid,etc who are coach w/ personnel control win games in the offseason, during the draft & free agency, evaluating, acquiring & developing talent, implementing schemes, forging a winning culture, game-planning, making adjustments, etc.

There is no comparison.

 

[Wozzy]

You are conveniently leaving out the other 7 years he’s coached without Brady

That is part of his 80-90 record without, correct.

He went 37-19 with a Super Bowl mvp and was seconds away from a second NFCCG in 3 years, in the last 3 years of his career. Again, not the hill you want to die on

Incorrect, I think it’s very hard. I’d expect some success in 10 years though, with what you’d consider the greatest coach and team builder ever, I’m assuming?

The last time the Browns were in the playoffs prior to 2021 was 23 years prior when BB had the #1 defense in the NFL, he might have stuck it out there but the owner moved the entire franchise to Baltimore. There's literally an ESPN documentary about this subject. You don't know your history so you sound ignorant.

Moreover comparing a player like Brady to a coach/GM is dumb, it's what little minds do. Brady can pull up stakes and leave for greener pastures as soon as he's a free agent. Pulling a Lebron or Kevin Durant and going to a franchise that's custom built to win, all they needed was a QB is not impressive.

It takes multiple seasons to turn an entire franchise around. There's cap, there's bad contracts, there's the matter of getting an entire roster in place... it takes time.

You don't think it's hard, you think if BB didn't win a championship immediately after Tom left then he lost the imaginary competition. Jesus how old are you? You're like the child telling us adults that Kanye West is a musical genius that eclipses Ray Charles just because he borrows his voice for his greatest hit.

And please... stop telling us BS about head of the snake... you're here attributing all of the Patriots success to Tom. Then when someone points out all the great players, defenses, offensive lines and special teams units that played here for two decades your canned response is "I never said that." Total horsesht... you are saying it. You've been here saying it for a week posting in between breaths... you literally dragged me back into this conversation three days later because people were sick of engaging in your cover your ears/eyes style. I'm not responding to you out of loyalty to Bill or to defend him. I'm posting because your opinion that Tom is the alpha and omega is completely insulting to the hundred plus players who contributed to Tom's success. He had absolutely nothing to do with the defense or rushing attack that saved his ass in the first round of the 2016 playoffs against the Texans where he played poorly. He has Dion Lewis and his defense, Bill's defense, to thank for ring #5... without his team he would have been bounced in the first round. This superhero narrative is dumb, utter garbage.

Now quick... don't really read of comprehend anything I wrote... just post a rapid fire response like you do every time you post.

 

[Wozzy]

If even arguably the greatest head coach of all time believes that it's the players who win games then I believe it too.

Where did the players come from... did they appear from the mist like Excalibur?

Did they land on our lawn in a comet like Superman?

If you listen very carefully, BB credits all his players... he doesn't credit one single magical unicorn player who didn't make a block, tackle or field goal in his twenty years in New England. He thanked them all.

 

[All3Phases]

The last time the Browns were in the playoffs prior to 2021 was 23 years prior when BB had the #1 defense in the NFL, he might have stuck it out there but the owner moved the entire franchise to Baltimore. There's literally an ESPN documentary about this subject. You don't know your history so you sound ignorant.

Did the ESPN Documentary cite his record in Cleveland?

Moreover comparing a player like Brady to a coach/GM is dumb, it's what little minds do. Brady can pull up stakes and leave for greener pastures as soon as he's a free agent. Pulling a Lebron or Kevin Durant and going to a franchise that's custom built to win, all they needed was a QB is not impressive.

Agree, going to a perennial loser and winning a super bowl isnt impressive...Coming from the guy who just said "Winning is hard"

It takes multiple seasons to turn an entire franchise around. There's cap, there's bad contracts, there's the matter of getting an entire roster in place... it takes time.

You don't think it's hard, you think if BB didn't win a championship immediately after Tom left then he lost the imaginary competition. Jesus how old are you? You're like the child telling us adults that Kanye West is a musical genius that eclipses Ray Charles just because he borrows his voice for his greatest hit.

10 years isnt immediately, I also never said He had to win a super bowl...Try and keep up. The drop off is drastic, and you wont admit that.

And please... stop telling us BS about head of the snake... you're here attributing all of the Patriots success to Tom. Then when someone points out all the great players, defenses, offensive lines and special teams units that played here for two decades your canned response is "I never said that." Total horsesht... you are saying it. You've been here saying it for a week posting in between breaths... you literally dragged me back into this conversation three days later because people were sick of engaging in your cover your ears/eyes style. I'm not responding to you out of loyalty to Bill or to defend him.

No, I have literally said they had great coaching here, multiple times which helped contribute heavily to the dynasty...You want to ignore that...What I did say, was all of the great coaching, which has been here since 2000, and was in cleveland before that, doesnt replicate the success without Brady. That is factual, and you dont like hearing that. Which means Brady, was the head of the snake...Just like Mahomes is in KC. I think Reid and BB are both outstanding coaches, neither of them are the same without the Generational qb. I have also said that I acknowledge that BBs career is not over, if he can make a few runs at a title, then I am open to changing my stance...until then

Also, you are a free man right? I didnt drag you anywhere, I responded to a post and you responded

 

[Steve102]

Also, and I've said this previously, Brady's 8-9 finish last year was a reminder that even the best QBs need good coaching to be successful, so it should have quieted that debate somewhat. But either way, what these guys did together gave us the unbelievable experience of watching two of the best ever to do it putting together a run that no two guys will ever duplicate.

That's crazy talk that will not be allowed.

 

[Wozzy]

Did the ESPN Documentary cite his record in Cleveland?

Agree, going to a perennial loser and winning a super bowl isnt impressive...Coming from the guy who just said "Winning is hard"

10 years isnt immediately, I also never said He had to win a super bowl...Try and keep up. The drop off is drastic, and you wont admit that.

No, I have literally said they had great coaching here, multiple times which helped contribute heavily to the dynasty...You want to ignore that...What I did say, was all of the great coaching, which has been here since 2000, and was in cleveland before that, doesnt replicate the success without Brady. That is factual, and you dont like hearing that. Which means Brady, was the head of the snake...Just like Mahomes is in KC. I think Reid and BB are both outstanding coaches, neither of them are the same without the Generational qb. I have also said that I acknowledge that BBs career is not over, if he can make a few runs at a title, then I am open to changing my stance...until then

Nick Foles wasn't a generational talent, neither was Flacco, neither was Eli Manning.

Stafford's went 12 years in Detroit without winning a single playoff game, he went to the Rams and immeditatly won 4 playoff games and a championship... you'll attribute all their success to his generational talent.

It's a child's understanding of football.

 

[All3Phases]

Nick Foles wasn't a generational talent, neither was Flacco, neither was Eli Manning.

Agree, and all 3 coaches are the definition of inconsistent...Just like most coaches without Elite quarterbacking.

Stafford's went 12 years in Detroit without winning a single playoff game, he went to the Rams and immeditatly won 4 playoff games and a championship... you'll attribute all their success to his generational talent.

Nope, never did that either. Funny how much easier it is to win with a good one though. McVay was very much like Reid, would include Shanahan in that bunch too

It's a child's understanding of football.

Results are important to me

 

[Wozzy]

Agree, and all 3 coaches are the definition of inconsistent...Just like most coaches without Elite quarterbacking.

There's nothing inconsistent about Harbaugh, Pederson or Tom Coughlin... who again, belongs in the HOF.

It's not their records that are askew, it's your value system.

You don't understand how hard it is to win in this league, and especially how hard it is to win a single ring.

Nope, never did that either. Funny how much easier it is to win with a good one though. McVay was very much like Reid, would include Shanahan in that bunch too

It's easier to win with good players... amazing insight. The difference between my take and yours, is you give one player all the credit and I credit team... again, yours is a child's understand of football and completely insulting to all the players who put their bodies on the line so Tom could look good.

You obviously never played football at even the pee wee level.

 

[All3Phases]

There's nothing inconsistent about Harbaugh, Pederson or Tom Coughlin... who again, belongs in the HOF.

It's not their records that are askew, it's your value system.

I am waiting for Belichick and other coaches to prove you right! Reid is now coaching a Dynasty, that was quick!

You don't understand how hard it is to win in this league, and especially how hard it is to win a single ring.

You just said Brady and Stafford winning wasnt impressive...Seems like youre the one whos having a struggle with your criteria here.

It's easier to win with good players... amazing insight. The difference between my take and yours, is you give one player all the credit and I credit team... again, yours is a child's understand of football and completely insulting to all the players who put their bodies on the line so Tom could look good.

The difference between my take and your take, is mine is backed by factual evidence and yours isnt. Again, I welcome BB to prove me wrong at some point here.

You obviously never played football at even the pee wee level.

Tell me how you running the Double Wing in high school correlates to the modern Day nfl and the importance on the quarterback!

 

[Ian]

Did the ESPN Documentary cite his record in Cleveland?

If you watched the documentary, he turned them from a losing franchise to a playoff-calibur team, including beating us, and then it all fell apart when the owner pulled the rug out from underneath him. That's something that gets lost in Cleveland. Again, people keep referring to his record because they think it helps while leaving out the context.

10 years isnt immediately, I also never said He had to win a super bowl...Try and keep up. The drop off is drastic, and you wont admit that.

You keep saying the drop-off without Brady is drastic. They missed the playoffs with Cam Newton in 2020. But they went to the postseason the next year after winning 10 games with a rookie quarterback and they each finished with the same record last year. Again, Brady won with a loaded Bucs team the first season - and I was absolutely happy for him - but the last two years, the results were essentially the same.

It's really simple - because I'm getting tired of seeing these posts in here. You either believe Belichick is an excellent coach, including better than the majority of coaches in the league, or you don't. I've said multiple times - and you seem to agree while skirting the issue - that other successful QBs would potentially have been even more successful, or that Brady may not have been as successful without him.

For the final time, that tells you all you need to know. And as I've said repeatedly, both guys monopolized each others prime years, so all we have is hypotheticals. And does Belichick win six titles with another elite QB? Probably not. But I'd be willing to believe Brady may not have either.

Brady's special. We all know it. But perspective does mean something. And you should be grateful he had Bill because let's pretend he won three championships throughout his career and has the same numbers. Without Bill, he may not truly separate himself by winning six here and we'd have to forever listen to people compare him to Manning or Montana and how he padded his numbers playing to 45. Thanks to being paired with Bill, that's not even a question.

Regardless, you're working off the hypothetical that you think Bill would have been a mediocre coach without him. Yet you want to dismiss relevant hypotheticals. Either way, if you're also going to keep throwing in his Cleveland years while ignoring the context to pad this weak argument, this is a dead issue.

You want to say Belichick wouldn't have been as successful (duh) but don't want to admit Brady wouldn't have been either. It's absolutely ridiculous.

As I told another poster, if you're not going to move an inch even though I can tell you agree with part of this, there's no further room for discussion.