BB THE GOAT

[Ian]

Patriot fans are denigrating BB. Who's next? Aurbach? Bird, Russell? Orr? My question is, you're not only not right, but if you're a Pats fan, why do you think being an ******* about it makes any sense? Why would you prove yourself to be against the Pats. Do you want everyone to hate the team the way you do? You will never be right. Ever. If you can't appreciate what they did together, and would rather tear it it down in favor of one, then you will never be considered a Patriot fan in many people s eyes.

I've dipped in recently and listened to sports radio - 98.5 in particular - and I at least know where a lot of this is coming from. They're not doing anybody any favors and they better hope Belichick and company make some personnel splashes to get people talking. Otherwise, when they've driven off the fans, they'll find out really quick that while they kicked the bee hive, that approach is going to do more harm than good.

 

[Ian]

Bill handcuffed himself in his third season given the coaching situation without Brady coming off a 10-7 season and a playoff appearance the year before with a rookie QB. People are quick to say "he sucks" when he's essentially had just two unsuccessful years post-Brady. It's a little silly. Everybody who dislikes Bill should be happy that he's basically heading into a year where failure really isn't an option.

Also, and I've said this previously, Brady's 8-9 finish last year was a reminder that even the best QBs need good coaching to be successful, so it should have quieted that debate somewhat. But either way, what these guys did together gave us the unbelievable experience of watching two of the best ever to do it putting together a run that no two guys will ever duplicate.

For now, both Mac and Bill are under the gun heading into this season. We'll find out in a little over 10 days how big of a splash they're willing to make to hopefully put a strong group around him and shore up other needs, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.

 

[All3Phases]

Brady clearly can’t win without a franchise caliber coach.

What’s a franchise caliber coach?

I made a mature decision to stop debating with your childish BS days ago. Yet here you are picking up the conversation again anyway. You love to argue.

I’m using the forum as it was created

It would be worth the effort if you were willing to listen to opposing viewpoints, but you stick to your garbage QB’s are super heroes fanboy nonsense and blather on.

I am 100% willing to listen, not sure where I gave you the vibe that I wasn’t listening? I’ve never told you that you were wrong have I?

You have stamina and the ability to ignore facts… it’s about the nicest thing I can say. I’d suggest moving onto someone who wants to argue “dumb,” otherwise I’ll just become insulting.

what facts did I ignore?

 

[All3Phases]

Bill handcuffed himself in his third season without Brady coming off a 10-7 season and a playoff appearance the year before with a rookie QB. People are quick to say "he sucks" when he's essentially had just two unsuccessful years post-Brady. It's a little silly. Be happy that everybody who dislikes Bill should be happy that he's basically heading into a year where failure really isn't an option.

I would never say he sucks btw, great coaching was a big part of the dynasty, my argument is that great coaching is the passenger to great quarterbacking imo. Just in this post you said 10-7 and a WC loss was a successful season, for 20 years you wouldn’t have said that…it would be a a season this fanbase mocked tbh. Just shows how important 1 player really was

Also, and I've said this previously, Brady's 8-9 finish last year was a reminder that even the best QBs need good coaching to be successful, so it should have quieted that debate somewhat. But either way, what these guys did together gave us the unbelievable experience of watching two of the best ever to do it putting together a run that no two guys will ever duplicate.

I think last year was a reminder that Brady didn’t want to play football, and his play showed it. He sucked a majority of the season and was a huge reason why the team was mediocre.

 

[Ian]

I would never say he sucks btw, great coaching was a big part of the dynasty, my argument is that great coaching is the passenger to great quarterbacking imo.

All you need to do is look at Indianapolis and Tony Dungy with Peyton Manning. Great coaches get the most out of elite players. Good coaches put up great numbers year in and year out and don't finish the job. If you can even agree that Manning would have had more Super Bowl rings with Bill, you've essentially answered the "passenger" question.

 

[All3Phases]

All you need to do is look at Indianapolis and Tony Dungy with Peyton Manning. Great coaches get the most out of elite players. Good coaches put up great numbers year in and year out and don't finish the job. If you can even agree that Manning would have had more Super Bowl rings with Bill, you've essentially answered the "passenger" question.

Your hypothetical is now that you want to put another all time great qb with Bill. Why cant Bill and his elite coaching win anything with anybody else in the real world though? Again, obviously his career isn’t over, but You must agree that his career is divided into 2 drastically different chunks, no?

 

[Ian]

Your hypothetical is now that you want to put another all time great qb with Bill. Why can Bill and his elite coaching win anything with anybody else in the real world though? You must agree that his career is divided into 2 drastically different chunks, no?

Ok, let me flip this. Does Brady win six Lombardi trophies with Dungy?

 

[Ian]

You must agree that his career is divided into 2 drastically different chunks, no?

Drastic? One championship with a loaded team and a competent coach, followed by two playoff exits, one of which in a year where he finished with the exact same record as Bill.

He had one year where the change was notable, and good for him.

 

[All3Phases]

Ok, let me flip this. Does Brady win six Lombardi trophies with Dungy?

Not sure, not my argument. I acknowledge coaching at different level provides different results. Let’s say Brady got drafted by Indy. Does belichick have any rings? His coaching mastery should be translated regardless right?

 

[All3Phases]

Drastic? One championship with a loaded team and a competent coach, followed by two playoff exits, one of which in a year where he finished with the exact same record as Bill.

He had one year where the change was notable, and good for him.

I was referring to Bill, where we can all cite his record with and without Brady. It’s a drastic change.

But to your Brady point, not sure where this is a counter to his need for Bill. His age 43-45 years he went 37-19 with a SB MVP and Shoudve been league MVP. His dip with a mediocre coach wasn’t a very big dip. But I also wouldn’t disagree if you said their consistency as a whole would’ve been greater with bill coaching them instead of Arians, as long as Brady was quarterbacking, which is my point

 

[Ian]

Not sure, not my argument. I acknowledge coaching at different level provides different results. Let’s say Brady got drafted by Indy.

But we’re talking about how big of an effect Belichick had on Brady’s success. Which you’re dismissing since Belichick was a “passenger.”

Does Brady win six championships with Sean Payton? He had Drew Brees and managed just one title. Another elite QB who do you think would have won multiple titles under Belichick?

Every team needs a competent QB, Belichick included. But again, if you believe Brees would have won more than one title, you’ve answered your own question.

 

[Ian]

I was referring to Bill, where we can all cite his record with and without Brady. It’s a drastic change.

It’s not that drastic. Again, they each went to the postseason and got bounced the year before and they each finished with the same record this year. Other than the Super Bowl run, it’s not that different. Not enough to put Belichick at the level you and others are placing him. And Belichick did the last two years with a rookie /2nd year QB.

 

[All3Phases]

But we’re talking about how big of an effect Belichick had on Brady’s success. Which you’re dismissing since Belichick was a “passenger.”

I don’t dismiss that, I acknowledge he help coached and developed Brady. But again, looking at history, coaching and developing only gets you so far. How many qbs has he coached and none of them have been Brady?

Does Brady win six championships with Sean Payton? He had Drew Brees and managed just one title. Another elite QB who do you think would have won multiple titles under Belichick?

Again, not my argument. Do the saints win 66% of their games if Drew Brees was Doug Brees?

Every team needs a competent QB, Belichick included. But again, if you believe Brees would have won more than one title, you’ve answered your own question.

Belichick has had competent qbs, and he isn’t a .500 coach without Brady. Hence the drastic change in his two chunks of careers

 

[All3Phases]

It’s not that drastic. Again, they each went to the postseason and got bounced the year before and they each finished with the same record this year. Other than the Super Bowl run, it’s not that different. Not enough to put Belichick at the level you and others are placing him. And Belichick did the last two years with a rookie QB.

Again, bill with and without Brady is drastic. He’s 80-90 without him, that’s drastically worse then his record with Brady.

 

[Ian]

Belichick has had competent qbs, and he isn’t a .500 coach without Brady. Hence the drastic change in his two chunks do careers

You guys all jump to the Cleveland years, I’m keeping it even due to the level of experience because Belichick learned a lot from Cleveland that he passed on to Brady.

Again, the last three years are what they are. And if you even believe Brees and Manning would have been more successful guys under Belichick, you answered the question, especially on the influence Belichick had on who Brady turned into.

 

[All3Phases]

You guys all jump to the Cleveland years, I’m keeping it even due to the level of experience because Belichick learned a lot from Cleveland that he passed on to Brady.

I don’t jump anywhere, if he was 70-0 in Cleveland I’d include those as well. I just count up the games he’s coached without Brady starting

Again, the last three years are what they are. And if you even believe Brees and Manning would have been more successful guys under Belichick, you answered the question, especially on the influence Belichick had on who Brady turned into.

I don’t know what would’ve happened with Peyton or Brees under belichick. I am simply arguing with what has actually happened. If bill goes on to win a championship without Brady, I’ll be the first to admit I am wrong, and I acknowledge his career is not over yet. As of today, all of his success as a coach is tied to Brady, and it’s not really deniable

Also, appreciate the discussion, clearly we disagree but it’s always fun to debate

 

[Ian]

As of today, all of his success as a coach is tied to Brady, and it’s not really deniable

So you’re going to penalize him for being the only one smart enough to draft/develop him? It’s so silly.

And again, if you can look at any other elite QB and say they would likely have been more successful with Bill, that’s all you need to know. And if you can hypothetically say you’re not sure Brady wins six elsewhere, the answer is the same.

Do we know it for certain? Of course not. But if you think maybe they would have, you just told yourself what Belichick’s effect is and how he would have fared without Brady. Obviously, still better than any other coach in football since no other QB had more than two over that 20yr span.

 

[All3Phases]

So you’re going to penalize him for being the only one smart enough to draft/develop him? It’s so silly.

Nope, not penalizing him at all. I very much acknowledge the role be played in Brady’s career. But let’s say he was coaching me the same way he was coaching Brady, are the results the same? Clearly no, because Brady is the only one he’s ever got positive results from

And again, if you can look at any other elite QB and say they would likely have been more successful with Bill, that’s all you need to know. And if you can hypothetically say you’re not sure Brady wins six elsewhere, the answer is the same.

I am not sure what the point of these hypotheticals are, it’s like me asking if Brady got drafted by Reid would he have more than 6 rings? Who knows

Do we know it for certain? Of course not. But if you think maybe they would have, you just told yourself how Belichick would have fared without Brady. Obviously, still better than any other coach in football since no other QB had more than two over that 20yr span.

We know how belichick is faring without Brady. We don’t need to hypothetically place other elite qbs in his spot. He’s 80-90 with qbs not named Brady

 

[lancerman]

The reason I don't like the is it Brady or Bill debate is because I think if you subtracted either they don't win close to as much. Brady proved he could win in an amazing situation without Brady. Bill proved he could win when everything in his program went perfect like 2001 even if Brady was green and not really the guy yet.

Brady with Dungy or Payton probably suffers from all the same errors. Maybe clutchness and Brady magic gets him an extra ring or two. Bill with Peyton or Brees will still win rings in his best years, but in years like 03, 14, 16 he probably doesn't get the magic he needed from the QB in the most intense moments. Hell I question whether they could win that shootout vs the Chiefs in 2018 without Brady. Brady really complimented how Bill likes to run his offense with efficiency and unselfish play but could go off when you really needed it if the situation merited it.

I think they both could win 2-3 without each other. But they couldn't get close to what they did together.

 

[Ian]

I am not sure what the point of these hypotheticals are, it’s like me asking if Brady got drafted by Reid would he have more than 6 rings? Who knows

The point is, we’re talking about Brady’s success with/without Belichick. Would Brady have been as successful without him?

And then, would another elite QB have been more successful with Bill?