When did Brady, become Brady, and Bill become IBWT? Just an open discussion to see where people stand.

[crawhammer]

I point out facts about Brady all the time and you ignore it and/or make excuses for it.

You have no credibility when it comes to Brady.

 

[Steve102]

If we could just pit Mac10 and his anti Brady energy against Crawahammer with his anti BB energy I bet we could crash the internet.

 

[venecol]

As others have said, you have zero idea what you are talking about. Belichick's game plan vs the Bills was to deliberately allow Thurman Thomas to run for 200 yards so that they wouldn't pass the ball 50 times in the game - this has been verified by Carl Banks of the Giants and others. They were playing primarily nickel and employed a punishing style defense that if Kelly threw the ball their receivers were going to get popped big time. NYG simply didn't have the weapons to compete with Jim Kelly, Andre Reed, etc. In fact the Giants offense in 1990 was very similar to NE's offense in 2001.

It's funny you say this because I read that Bill's game plan against PHI in SB LII was the same to counter the RPO. Unfortunately, it didn't work with Foles having a crazy career game (and playoffs) to then disappear into the night. That SB still pisses me off. We should've won that one. And please, I don't want to hear about the strip sack (for the 100th time).

 

[crawhammer]

For crying out loud, let it go.

I'm replying to post that said my argument is "hot trash sitting in a full dumpster on a humid day in the august florida heat." I can't ignore that.

 

[ahmed]

Brady
-My Hero: Snow Bowl
-My God: SB36

BB
-My Hero: SB36
-My God: SB38

I should have added that I started watching NFL regularly in 2003. Prior to that I only watched SBs.

Brady was clearly special from day 1 as even in 2001 what he did was special.

 

[sean10mm]

Only Pats fans can turn the most feel-good discussion into rage bait lol

2003-2004 has a good case if you remember what it felt like watching the team then. The 2001 team was lightning in a bottle, 2002 had a dip, but 2003-2004 team was like a machine made to steadily grind people into paste over and over again. And the run to Super Bowl 39 was bananas:

#1 scoring offense ever up to then held to 3 (Colts)
#1 defense in the league in points and yards gives up 34 points (and a pick six lol)

 

[venecol]

Here's one... go back to 10/27/97. Monday nighter Pats home vs Green Bay. To start the 3rd, the Pats drove the GB 1 yard line. Pete handed the ball off to Martin once for no gain, then threw the ball 3 times, incomplete to Byers, Coates and Byers. GB drove 99 yards to essentially put the game away, keeping the ball for all but the final 15 seconds on the third quarter. On that roster for NE was HoFer Curtis Martin, RB Dave Meggett, FB Sam Gash (who was considered the best FB in the league during his career) WRs Shawn Jefferson, Terry Glenn, Troy Brown, Vincent Brisby, and TE Ben Coates. We all would love those weapons now.

My point is that Pete threw the ball three times when he could have pounded it with Martin, with Gash as lead blocker, play action with Meggett, or even snuck with Bledsoe. He had a propensity for passing on the goal line. My guess is Bill knew this exact historic situation, and, based on what we saw in "Do Your Job", knew with the personnel they had on the field, they were passing.

Green Bay Packers at New England Patriots - October 27th, 1997 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

I thought they put the GL personnel on that play.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

It's funny you say this because I read that Bill's game plan against PHI in SB LII was the same to counter the RPO. Unfortunately, it didn't work with Foles having a crazy career game (and playoffs) to then disappear into the night. That SB still pisses me off. We should've won that one. And please, I don't want to hear about the strip sack (for the 100th time).

Look, there is no doubt that Bill's defense was bad that game and main reason why the Pats lost vs Philly. But people like Crawhammer and SB1 blame Bill for one bad drive in SB42 despite the Pats D playing well in that game as a whole, but at the same time they don't want to blame Brady for fumbling the game away in 52 with 2:03 left on an equally bad drive. Their logic is so screwed up and i have to point it out every time.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Of all the members here, you hold the single dumbest position of anyone. Essentially your position is Brady really isn't that good. "He's in your top 5" of all-time QBs is the closest you've come to saying anything positive about him.

I think Brady is a great QB, but he's more Lebron than Jordan. I'm sorry if that upsets you.

 

[sean10mm]

I'm replying to post that said my argument is "hot trash sitting in a full dumpster on a humid day in the august florida heat." I can't ignore that.

SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET

 

[Ian]

SOMEONE IS WRONG ON THE INTERNET

 

[sb1]

Let's put this overrated narrative to rest.

Buffalo lost 4 Super Bowls in a row from 1990 to 1993.

SB 25 (loss to NYG)
371 yards of total offense
166 rushing yards
1 sack
0 turnovers
19 points
Lost by 1 point on a missed 47-yards FGA

SB 26 (loss to Washington)
283 yards of total offense
43 rushing yards
5 sacks
5 turnovers
24 points
Lost by 13 points

SB 27 (loss to Cowboys)
362 yards of total offense
108 rushing yards
4 sacks
9 turnovers
17 points
Lost by 35 points

SB 28 (loss to Cowboys)
314 yards of total offense
87 rushing yards
3 sacks
3 turnovers
13 points
Lost by 17 points

The Bills k-gun offense sucked in the Super Bowls. Jim Kelly was a complete disaster... 4 games, 2 TDs, 7 INTs, 3 FL, and 56.9 passer rating. Kelly and the k-gun offense had their best Super Bowl against Belichick's defense... most total yards, most rushing yards, fewest sacks (1), fewest turnovers (0), and merely lost by a missed FG. Buffalo had 17 turnovers in their other 3 SB losses where they were completely humiliated by the opposing defenses. So "mastermind" Bill actually shut down the Bills offense the least in those 4 games. The far more dominant defensive performances came from Washington and then Dallas twice.

Maybe @GreenCow has a take on this but I would say the 1990 Bills (the team that played the Giants) was the best team out of the 4 and definitely the most well balanced so that puts into perspective how well the Giants defense did to slow them down. They were the only team out of the 4 to lead the league in scoring. They scored 44 points in the divisional round and 51 in the AFC Championship game. Total domination. They aren't far behind the 07 Patriots for best teams of all time that didn't win a SB. The team that lost to the Redskins was also great but the Redskins were one of the best teams of all time.

The 3rd and 4th Bills SB teams weren't nearly as good as the first two were IMO. They didn't even win their division the next year. The Houston comeback game was a wild card game.

 

[Ian]

I'm replying to post that said my argument is "hot trash sitting in a full dumpster on a humid day in the august florida heat." I can't ignore that.

On the Bill thing, it sorta is. Guy is a great coach Xs and Os-wise, you need to just accept that the same way @MAC10 needs to let the Brady stuff go - especially given the crazy number of threads he posted loving on the guy while he was here.

While Bill's decisions this last season obviously cast a shadow over things with the mistakes he made, his overall body of work shouldn't be ignored. That's the issue I - and quite a few others - have, and - for your own sanity - you gotta let it go. He's in a perfect scenario for everybody this offseason. He's under the gun because they need to improve and win in 2023.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I should have added that I started watching NFL regularly in 2003. Prior to that I only watched SBs.

Brady was clearly special from day 1 as even in 2001 what he did was special.

Like most here who have followed the team for decades, we've seen QBs come and go.

For me, a QB is just a guy until he wins a ton of games, has playoff success and wins a Super Bowl.

To your point, Tom did all of that in 2001 under the most pressurized situations.

He followed that up with a pretty solid 2002 and in 2003-2006 kept it going.

2007-2013 raised his stature to 1st ballot HoF.

2014-Present: GOAT.

 

[venecol]

If we could just pit Mac10 and his anti Brady energy against Crawhammer with his anti BB energy I bet we could crash the internet.

Or isolate them in a subforum and let them go at it for days. Probably beat the Malcolm Butler mega thread record by themselves in 2 weeks.

 

[Ian]

Or isolate them in a subforum and let them go at it for days. Probably beat the Malcolm Butler mega thread record by themselves in 2 weeks.

LOL, a cage match for the ages.

 

[venecol]

Look, there is no doubt that Bill's defense was bad that game and main reason why the Pats lost vs Philly. But people like Crawhammer and SB1 blame Bill for one bad drive in SB42 despite the Pats D playing well in that game as a whole, but at the same time they don't want to blame Brady for fumbling the game away in 52 with 2:03 left on an equally bad drive. Their logic is so screwed up and i have to point it out every time.

Yea, not trying to go there. Just wanted to point out that Bill's philosophy in that SB was based on what he did w/ the Giants to counter the PHI RPO game. It just didn't work that time. I just thought it was an interesting tie-in to the HOF D game plan.

 

[Ian]

Getting this back on track, for me, for Bill, I'd have to say the first Rams regular season game. That was when I first thought, "Man...they really have something here and if they play them again down the road, I like their chances."

For Brady...that's a tough one. I would say the first away game in 2001 against Buffalo where he got his helmet knocked off and got right back up and they ended up winning in OT. He showed me he was a tough, gritty kid on top of being smart with the football and getting things done. That was probably the moment where I really started feeling like, "yeah ... Drew is done here." And I was a HUGE Bledsoe guy

 

[crawhammer]

It's a bad argument. Period, as have been all of your efforts on what's essentially a tired narrative. As @Pat the Pats Fan pointed out - your "numbers" left out a key detail as you just threw out your take.

I got positive reactions to that post. It was quoted with agreeable comments including "great analysis." It's not me alone on an island with some wacky argument.

Pat the Pats Fan's comment was the objective was to take away the passing game. Whoopie 1 sack and 0 takeaways. The k-gun passing game got obliterated in the next 3 SBs: 3 TDs (in total garbage time), 9 INTs, and 12 sacks. Shutting down the k-gun offense was not a unique accomplishment in the SB.

Stick to Bill's accomplishments during the Patriots Dynasty. More credibility there.

Anyway you look at it, Bill is also a key factor in a lot of those tough games where they won against teams people didn't expect them to. It was a two-way street and both guys benefited from working together. It's the chicken or the egg and there's no right answer, other than they both put together 20 combined years of sustained greatness.

I haven't taken that away from him. And I agree with the collaborative effort statement. They both brought great assets into the equation and they found a way to co-exist in a collaborative effect for a very long time.

 

[Ian]

I got positive reactions to that post. It was quoted with agreeable comments including "great analysis." It's not me alone on an island with some wacky argument.

Pat the Pats Fan's comment was the objective was to take away the passing game. Whoopie 1 sack and 0 takeaways. The k-gun passing game got obliterated in the next 3 SBs: 3 TDs (in total garbage time), 9 INTs, and 12 sacks. Shutting down the k-gun offense was not a unique accomplishment in the SB.