Does Belichick Last Beyond 2023, and What Needs to Happen?

[Rob0729]

You said 4000 yards and 25-30 TDs which is kinda average by current standards. Mac has to break the top 20 first so I don't think top 10 is realistic for next season.

Not this year. That would be top 10. Only nine QBs have 4,000 yards or more. Only seven QBs have more than 25 TDs and only three have more than 30. I was just going by this year's numbers to set a minimum.

 

[Ian]

It'll be more of the same. Probably between 8-10 wins, no division, maybe back into the playoffs and lose again. I have no faith anything will change as long as Bill is the HC. Another wasted year. Hopefully he gets Shula's record so we can move on.

Then why bother? I mean, you say that now, but you're not the slightest bit curious about the offseason, changes in staff, player acquisitions with a ton of cap space, etc? Especially with the pressure now really on him? Based on what you're saying, we should all just go get ready for the Red Sox, watch some hockey, basketball, etc. and ignore the whole team and process until we hear the headline that Bill has been fired?

Again, I get you're not happy with him, but you're basically saying to get rid of him now, which we all know isn't happening. That's why I locked two threads and am trying to at least get us talking about changes that are at least somewhat realistic with an eye toward the future.

 

[h0c2000]

I don't know why people keep saying this.

The staff is big. They have 20 coaches on staff: HC, OC, Ass't OL, WR/KR (Troy Brown), TE, QB, RB, passing game coordinator (Rothstein), Offensive ass't (Hughes), Ass't RB, DC, LB, DL, S, CB, Ass't Defense, ST, Ass't ST, S&C, Ass't S&C

The staff is huge.

And if Belichick's salary is what prevents them from hiring coaches of choice, that's not a Belichick problem. That's a Bob Kraft problem.

Well it's Bill's philosophy that less is more.

Bill Belichick details his 'less is more' philosophy on coaching staffs

Study: Do The Steelers Really Have The NFL's Smallest Coaching Staff? - Steelers Depot

 

[crawhammer]

‘were a doormat’. True. But to overlook the talent that team had in Brady’s first season in Tampa…

It had been 13 seasons since they made the postseason. It had been 18 seasons since they won a playoff game. It had been 10 seasons since they'd won more than 9 games. It had been 10 seasons since they'd won their division. They'd never won back-to-back division titles.

Brady's 3 seasons (so far) in Tampa Bay:
2 division titles (back-to-back)
2 double digit win seasons (back-to-back)
5-1 postseason record
1 Super Bowl Championship

Brady turned that franchise around in one season.

 

[upstater1]

Well it's Bill's philosophy that less is more.

Bill Belichick details his 'less is more' philosophy on coaching staffs

Study: Do The Steelers Really Have The NFL's Smallest Coaching Staff? - Steelers Depot

So maybe then we should have fewer coaches because back when we had less the Patriots won more games?

 

[venecol]

The posts are all up above in this discussion. It's not a mystery. 2 posters recommend him here.

On other threads, there's call to fire Bill and hire McVay or other innovators like him.
And yet Bill is 8-9 and that is simply UNSATISFACTORY! Let's hire the guy with 13 losses!!

Yea, I saw the posts. So?

2020-2022 record:
McVay .540 / 5-1 playoffs - SB win
BB .500 / 0-1 playoffs

 

[upstater1]

Yea, I saw the posts. So?

2020-2022 record:
McVay .540 / 5-1 playoffs - SB win
BB .500 / 0-1 playoffs

Oh so now we're going on past Super Bowls. Not this year's record.

 

[venecol]

Then why bother? I mean, you say that now, but you're not the slightest bit curious about the offseason, changes in staff, player acquisitions with a ton of cap space, etc? Especially with the pressure now really on him? Based on what you're saying, we should all just go get ready for the Red Sox, watch some hockey, basketball, etc. and ignore the whole team and process until we hear the headline that Bill has been fired?

Again, I get you're not happy with him, but you're basically saying to get rid of him now, which we all know isn't happening. That's why I locked two threads and am trying to at least get us talking about changes that are at least somewhat realistic with an eye toward the future.

I'll be watching because I'm a fan of the team. Maybe they'll surprise me.

I never said get rid of him now. I'm realistic and know that's not happening. I have a post on this thread saying what he needs to do in '23 to keep his job.

 

[Steve102]

All good, don't take anything personal.

They care. A lot.

I guess we are cut from a different cloth, my friend. I look at that as lip service. Placate the folks that spend the money. Make no mistake, I think they care, but they are not reactionary, and as long as the money keeps flowing, it's all good on Route 1. They aren't John Henry and his group. Henry will 100% react to the negative press. They aren't Jerry Jones either, who only cares that his bottom line is in the black and his wallet is full.

 

[Rob0729]

Then why bother? I mean, you say that now, but you're not the slightest bit curious about the offseason, changes in staff, player acquisitions with a ton of cap space, etc? Especially with the pressure now really on him? Based on what you're saying, we should all just go get ready for the Red Sox, watch some hockey, basketball, etc. and ignore the whole team and process until we hear the headline that Bill has been fired?

Again, I get you're not happy with him, but you're basically saying to get rid of him now, which we all know isn't happening. That's why I locked two threads and am trying to at least get us talking about changes that are at least somewhat realistic with an eye toward the future.

I am really down on Belichick right now, but there is no reason to believe the guy cannot learn from this year's mistakes and turn it around. The Pats have a lot of money and he was personally responsible for some of the losses whether it was from directly his decisions or the way he let this team get undisciplined or the people he put in place. This team could have possibly won three or more games if it had a different OC and the team was as smart and disciplined as most Belichick run teams in the past.

 

[venecol]

Oh so now we're going on past Super Bowls. Not this year's record.

I've been talk about the past three seasons throughout this thread and in others. I'm not basing my conclusions on just this season but the recent pattern. You're the one bringing up McVay, so I replied to you. I get you're replying to different posters, so I get it.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Bill first needs to concentrate on salvaging his relationship with Mac as the rumor is Mac contacted another Coach during the season who it is speculated to be McDaniels. Players have also told Bedard that they think Mac has been thrown under the bus by the coaching staff and they don't like the blocking schemes.

 

[crawhammer]

Then why bother? I mean, you say that now, but you're not the slightest bit curious about the offseason, changes in staff, player acquisitions with a ton of cap space, etc? Especially with the pressure now really on him? Based on what you're saying, we should all just go get ready for the Red Sox, watch some hockey, basketball, etc. and ignore the whole team and process until we hear the headline that Bill has been fired?

Again, I get you're not happy with him, but you're basically saying to get rid of him now, which we all know isn't happening. That's why I locked two threads and am trying to at least get us talking about changes that are at least somewhat realistic with an eye toward the future.

I think that's the key word also when talking about the prospects for this team in the immediate future (2-3 seasons which will probably put a cap on Bill's coaching career). As I've explained before, I think they find themselves in an exceptionally difficult position with a seemingly average quarterback in a conference with possibly as many as 8 elite level quarterbacks. Bill's presence alone isn't going to change that. Maybe a competent OC makes a substantial difference but there's still a very steep hill to climb. And it's not realistic to think they're going to hit on everything: OC, true WR1, o-line, etc. which is probably what it will take to give the team a realistic chance to consistently compete at a high level with Mac Jones at quarterback.

 

[upstater1]

I've been talk about the past three seasons throughout this thread and in others. I'm not basing my conclusions on just this season but the recent pattern. You're the one bringing up McVay, so I replied to you. I get you're replying to different posters, so I get it.

Yes of course you want to cherry pick and limit this, that's no surprise!!

 

[venecol]

Yes of course you want to cherry pick and limit this, that's no surprise!!

Ok man, whatever you want to believe.

 

[turkeyneck]

Bill first needs to concentrate on salvaging his relationship with Mac as the rumor is Mac contacted another Coach during the season who it is speculated to be McDaniels. Players have also told Bedard that they think Mac has been thrown under the bus by the coaching staff and they don't like the blocking schemes.

I don't know if any of that is true but it sure sounds like the kind of stuff that was coming out of DET when MP was there.

 

[203Pat]

Bill used to always be two steps ahead. With on field personnel like Troy Brown, to Welker, to Edelman or Kevin Faulk, to Woodhead, to Vereen, to White etc. The coaching staff wasn't too far off either. There always used to be a bunch of young guys working up through the ranks and sometimes there would be no one officially named to a position but there was at least someone who had worked on the same side of the ball prior.

Now Bill seems to be chasing it in a lot of spots because of so many years of bad drafting and poor personnel decisions. Wynn should have been the replacement for Solder and then went he went down Bill swung a good trade for Brown only for the next year to have to go to Marshall Newhouse to protect Brady's blindside and it was mess and Wynn hasn't been any real prize either. Similar issue with Harry. Harry was drafted to be a number one and it was apparent pretty quickly that he wasn't that guy so Bill threw $9 mill at Antonio Brown for one game and then a desperate trade for Sanu. In his pursuit to get a number one receiver he used a first round pick, a second round pick, and $9 million just for AB and to this day we still don't have a true number one.

It worries me that Bill didn't rip the bandaid off in 2020 because he is chasing Shula's record and didn't want to tear it down to the studs and lose more games in the short term but do what is best in the long term. I believe he is 18 games shy of the record which also worries me because this iteration of the Patriots seems to float around 7-10 wins a year post-Brady so he may just want to "run it back" with Patricia at OC. I truly believe he thinks that if Mac would do what they asked of him the team would win games and he blames Mac for the struggle more than Patricia. The Krafts may not want to see Bill break the record elsewhere after seeing Brady win a Super Bowl 5 minutes after he left but at this point that is a risk I would be willing to take. This is an offense first league. We need an innovative offensive coach and we need to swing for the fences on a true number one receiver and see if Mac can be a high end starter in this league.

 

[Ian]

I'll be watching because I'm a fan of the team. Maybe they'll surprise me.

I never said get rid of him now. I'm realistic and know that's not happening. I have a post on this thread saying what he needs to do in '23 to keep his job.

You say that, but then you have a bunch of others citing all of his failures and essentially why they're better off replacing him now because you believe 2023 is going to be more of the same.

All I'm saying is this is the perfect scenario for you. For the first time in his tenure, unlike a player in the last year of his contract, it's Bill who is essentially under pressure to turn things around or potentially have to face them pondering a move after the season if they fall short again. Obviously, ownership has been patient, and with good reason, but all of those circling over him should sort of be really intrigued by how this offseason goes. They've got a ton of money to spend and some big holes to fill. Should definitely be interesting.

 

[Ian]

Bill used to always be two steps ahead. With on field personnel like Troy Brown, to Welker, to Edelman or Kevin Faulk, to Woodhead, to Vereen, to White etc. The coaching staff wasn't too far off either. There always used to be a bunch of young guys working up through the ranks and sometimes there would be no one officially named to a position but there was at least someone who had worked on the same side of the ball prior.

Now Bill seems to be chasing it in a lot of spots because of so many years of bad drafting and poor personnel decisions. Wynn should have been the replacement for Solder and then went he went down Bill swung a good trade for Brown only for the next year to have to go to Marshall Newhouse to protect Brady's blindside and it was mess and Wynn hasn't been any real prize either. Similar issue with Harry. Harry was drafted to be a number one and it was apparent pretty quickly that he wasn't that guy so Bill threw $9 mill at Antonio Brown for one game and then a desperate trade for Sanu. In his pursuit to get a number one receiver he used a first round pick, a second round pick, and $9 million just for AB and to this day we still don't have a true number one.

It worries me that Bill didn't rip the bandaid off in 2020 because he is chasing Shula's record and didn't want to tear it down to the studs and lose more games in the short term but do what is best in the long term. I believe he is 18 games shy of the record which also worries me because this iteration of the Patriots seems to float around 7-10 wins a year post-Brady so he may just want to "run it back" with Patricia at OC. I truly believe he thinks that if Mac would do what they asked of him the team would win games and he blames Mac for the struggle more than Patricia. The Krafts may not want to see Bill break the record elsewhere after seeing Brady win a Super Bowl 5 minutes after he left but at this point that is a risk I would be willing to take. This is an offense first league. We need an innovative offensive coach and we need to swing for the fences on a true number one receiver and see if Mac can be a high end starter in this league.

Don't forget, part of the reason is he was blindsided by the Brady move (even though most people saw that potentially coming) and the timeline of how that played out didn't help. They also had a lot of money handcuffing them because they didn't extend him and opted to go year to year, so they really had no money to spend and his deal came to a head. The only positive was that they only suffered a season and were able to get him off the books. The key question now is whether or not the 7-9 season that got them Mac will end up working out. If not, have to hope for Zappe. If not, then we could be looking at the wheel of veteran retreads until the next "guy" falls into our laps.

 

[archstanton543]

The Krafts may not want to see Bill break the record elsewhere after seeing Brady win a Super Bowl 5 minutes after he left but at this point that is a risk I would be willing to take. This is an offense first league. We need an innovative offensive coach and we need to swing for the fences on a true number one receiver and see if Mac can be a high end starter in this league.

A team that's a QB away from contention is a lot closer to a Super Bowl title than a team that's a head coach away.

At 71+ do you think BB has the energy and drive to install his system on a new team and get those players to buy in after 1 season or even 2? BB isn't going anywhere and even if he did, he's not winning a Super Bowl right away with another team. The 2000-2001 seasons were unique in that a lot of the team was still intact from the time he was on the coaching staff earlier and it still took him a year with a losing record to win the next year.