Does Belichick Last Beyond 2023, and What Needs to Happen?

[Ian]

That critical INT by Tre'Davious White was thrown from 1-yard outside the red zone, so lucky for your stats.

LOL, true - but they got the ball back two plays later which nullifies your "critical INT" point.

So I guess you saw and you didn't like what you found?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Can't get away with not having a top wideout when you have a young QB. With Brady, it was a luxury. With Mac - or any other young quarterback - it's a necessity. Plus, it makes the other guys around him better.

...or an all-world GOAT TE.

 

[Kontradiction]

It's 2023.

Until he caught lightning in a bottle in 2000? He caught lightning for 20 years?

That's the greatest record of all time.

Honestly, given what he did with the Giants, Cleveland, the Patriots in '96, the Jets, I was already a huge fan in 2000.

I've seen him shut down top 10 offenses in NFL history 3x in Super Bowls. Seriously, teams averaging 35ppg have scored a total of 40 points COMBINED against the Patriots in 3 Super Bowls. That's an incredible accomplishment. Not to mention his defensive game plans with the Giants, those pans are in the HOF. His defenses just shut down the greatest offenses of all time.

He did. He had the greatest quarterback of all time play for him for two decades while taking less than top of the market deals because said QB put winning Super Bowls ahead of his financial goals. That’s like walking into a knife fight with a bazooka.

Yes or no - BB’s overall record has been mediocre as a HC without Brady?

 

[Ian]

...or an all-world GOAT TE.

Gotta have at least one GOAT to throw to either at WR or TE. Have to have someone who can make a contested catch with the game on the line.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I don’t think this is unfair at all, I think this is close to how they’ve built teams in the past, just that the A players were at quarterback, so it made a lot of things look better

Bingo.

They had some A players on D which they needed.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

They had injuries, but so did a lot of teams.

I want to know exactly what is the talent drain that caused them to lose 12 games?

Because before Stafford and Kupp got injured, they were a .333 team. So... losing Von Miller caused them to fall back this much?

I honestly don't get it.

I think it’s been noted a few times that one of the reasons BB has as much player turnover as he does is he’s afraid of the player’s hunger going away after major success, so he tries to find other players who are hungry for success. The Rams basically kept their team together except for Miller and OBJ. Did many of the players just lose their drive a bit now that they’ve won? Interesting question.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I don't think the intangibles of Bill's system, or the supposed Patriot Way, have withstood the test of Brady's departure.

Tom had tremendous influence on the locker room culture and commanded emphasis on the attention to detail.

Every coach needs those players to carry his water.

 

[crawhammer]

(Sigh) yes, he's gone. Yes, he took an irreplaceable veteran presence and skillset from that position and the team with him.

Gotta start letting that go.

I've let it go. Other people are carrying on like all of Bill's methods were (and remain) essential to the team's success. "key tenants to his program that are uncompromising"... how's that working out lately? Never mind February 4, 2018.

 

[venecol]

I don't disagree. But the fact they were at least in it and had a shot is something that I think gets forgotten by the people who want Bill gone. Do they need to fix issues with the staff? Absolutely. But thinking things will improve if Bill wasn't here anymore, I think is one of those "be careful what you wish for" situations that people are underestimating.

I don't understand this point you keep on repeating. What are you trying to say with this? Do you think that being close in games but being unable to win them is a positive thing? I certainly don't. In fact, it makes things worse. There was a time for a long time this team won the majority of those games. Now, consistantly for four straight seasons we don't. I don't think we can look at a pattern of ending every single season for 4 straight years with a losing record and somehow explain it away with a moral victory argument of "but we were close." Four straight seasons of losing records in Dec-Jan with: Josh, Patricia, Brady, Cam, Mac.

The only constant is Belichick, yet nothing has changed. This notion that just because it's Bill it's impossible for his decision making to have slowed down is not backed up by data from other coaches like Marv Levy, Halas, Crennel, Carroll. All of these guys that coached in their 70s were sub .500 coaches. There's only a handful of them. Most coaches retire between 63-69.

It seems that the vast majority of posters want Bill to stay just to break Shula's record regardless of how the team does. I want the team to get better and become a contender again. Bill is on his last leg. Is the expectation for him to develop a team that becomes a contender, retire and then hand it off to some new guy who is expected to carry on with Bill's system and ways? Who is that? Lil Stephen? Come on, the sooner we get that guy, the sooner he can create the team under his vision. We're just kicking the can down the road and wasting time.

 

[upstater1]

He did. He had the greatest quarterback of all time play for him for two decades while taking less than top of the market deals because said QB put winning Super Bowls ahead of his financial goals. That’s like walking into a knife fight with a bazooka.

Yes or no - BB’s overall record has been mediocre as a HC without Brady?

My only way to answer that is to insult the person asking, because Belichick had a 20 year career with Brady. So... except for that...

I mean, he had 3 rebuilds. One in Cleveland where the team had improved. One in New England where he win a Super Bowl with a really limited Brady. Then 20 years of unparalleled success.

This is like being married to the world's top super model for 20 years, then she moves on, and people say, not only can you not get another super model, but you're not even worthy to date an 8!

There are plenty of things Belichick did in those 20 years that made this team the champion it became, things that no other coach could do, and the extra $5m or $10m for Brady was NOT the deciding factor. Too much is made about that.

I just mentioned the defensive performance, and that alone should be ascribed to Belichick.

 

[venecol]

Kraft can be as dissatisfied as he wants. The question is what is his alternative?

No one is celebrating 8-9.

So fine, fire the guy and then let's go on the coaching merry-go-round.

In places like Dallas and Baltimore, they are sticking it out.

So stay with Bill until he dies regardless of the sub .500 record? Great plan you have there.

 

[Ian]

I don't understand this point you keep on repeating. What are you trying to say with this? Do you think that being close in games but being unable to win them is a positive thing? I certainly don't. In fact, it makes things worse. There was a time for a long time this team won the majority of those games. Now, consistantly for four straight seasons we don't. I don't think we can look at a pattern of ending every single season for 4 straight years with a losing record and somehow explain it away with a moral victory argument of "but we were close." Four straight seasons of losing records in Dec-Jan with: Josh, Patricia, Brady, Cam, Mac.

The only constant is Belichick, yet nothing has changed. This notion that just because it's Bill it's impossible for his decision making to have slowed down is not backed up by data from other coaches like Marv Levy, Halas, Crennel, Carroll. All of these guys that coached in their 70s were sub .500 coaches. There's only a handful of them. Most coaches retire between 63-69.

It seems that the vast majority of posters want Bill to stay just to break Shula's record regardless of how the team does. I want the team to get better and become a contender again. Bill is on his last leg. Is the expectation for him to develop a team that becomes a contender, retire and then hand it off to some new guy who is expected to carry on with Bill's system and ways? Who is that? Lil Stephen? Come on, the sooner we get that guy, the sooner he can create the team under his vision. We're just kicking the can down the road and wasting time.

Again, same story. The guy still knows X's and O's better than the majority of active coaches and they were bad this year and having a thin staff with no experience at their positions playing a role in a fair amount of their issues. I understand that's on Bill, but his football prowess is what makes him an asset and I expect the other issues to be addressed this offseason.

You should sort of be excited. Bill's back is up against the wall in a critical year in 2023. Surprised you're not looking forward to that.

 

[Kontradiction]

My only way to answer that is to insult the person asking, because Belichick had a 20 year career with Brady. So... except for that...

I mean, he had 3 rebuilds. One in Cleveland where the team had improved. One in New England where he win a Super Bowl with a really limited Brady. Then 20 years of unparalleled success.

This is like being married to the world's top super model for 20 years, then she moves on, and people say, not only can you not get another super model, but you're not even worthy to date an 8!

There are plenty of things Belichick did in those 20 years that made this team the champion it became, things that no other coach could do, and the extra $5m or $10m for Brady was NOT the deciding factor. Too much is made about that.

I just mentioned the defensive performance, and that alone should be ascribed to Belichick.

That’s not the only way you can answer it. That’s just dodging the question. So I’ll ask it again…

Yes or no - BB’s overall record has been mediocre as a HC without Brady?

You can simply answer “yes” or you can answer “no,” then make the case. It sounds like you’re answering “yes,” then going on an excuse-making parade. But that’s just my assumption. I don’t want to assume, so a simple answer would work. Then we can move on to my original claim - the “lightning in a bottle” assertion in which you took issue.

 

[venecol]

100% this. You are guaranteed the next guy will not have Bill's football knowledge base or his IQ. This is not opinion, this is fact. There's no one in the NFL with Bill's resume or experience.

Bill's resume is irrelevant. His record in the last three seasons is the only thing that matters. There are a dozen younger coaches with better records than Bill. Bill's knowledge of foitball history isn't winning us the games we need to win when we need to win them.

Do you think that Kraft is going to run his business based on the internet calling for Patricia's head?

You mean his customers? Yea, probably not. What business worries about their customers to be succesful.

 

[Ian]

That’s not the only way you can answer it. That’s just dodging the question. So I’ll ask it again…

Yes or no - BB’s overall record has been mediocre as a HC without Brady?

You can simply answer “yes” or you can answer “no,” then make the case. It sounds like you’re answering “yes,” then going on an excuse-making parade. But that’s just my assumption. I don’t want to assume, so a simple answer would work. Then we can move on to my original claim - the “lightning in a bottle” assertion in which you took issue.

I get the point, but it's tough. I don't know how much you can stock you can take in a coach's first season, and when you take into account the direction the Browns were headed in and the start they were off to when Modell pulled out the rug on that, there's certainly some additional context there. If you want to total his record for 2020,2021 and 2022, I would say that's a fair criticism - basically around .500.

But the people who quote prior to that I think is a little disingenuous. We see the talking heads do it all the time and Belichick weeded out the problem players here after 2000 and we all know how that turned out. I don't now many coaches around the league that go into a bad situation (which they're usually in, because the last guy got fired) and are able to clean it up and have a great year the first year. Yes, it happens, but it's rare.

 

[Boomer B]

That’s for you to decide. If it makes it unenjoyable for you then you may leave also.

Keep whining Andy. I’ll send you some tissues

 

[crawhammer]

Tom had tremendous influence on the locker room culture and commanded emphasis on the attention to detail.

Every coach needs those players to carry his water.

How much of that was just attributable to Brady? Particularly by the latter half of the dynasty. Sometimes locker room leadership stems from player driven leadership and influence. Brady obviously has an unparalleled competitive drive and impeccable attention to detail. He's held in high regard by his teammates who are compelled to follow his leadership if they want to be a part of his journey.

 

[venecol]

In the interest of being comprehensive, there is a part of me that wants Orchids and Jonathan to chat with McVay.

I would be completely shocked if they haven't done some due diligence, not w/ McVay necessarily, but explored options. It would make them poor business men if they haven't and they are not that.

 

[Ian]

How much of that was just attributable to Brady? Particularly by the latter half of the dynasty. Sometimes locker room leadership stems from player driven leadership and influence. Brady obviously has an unparalleled competitive drive and impeccable attention to detail. He's held in high regard by his teammates who are compelled to follow his leadership if they want to be a part of his journey.

Obviously, a lot. A lot easier to get buy in and get a consistent message across when you have that guy. But ... he's gone. "It is what it is."

 

[RobertWeathers]

How much of that was just attributable to Brady? Particularly by the latter half of the dynasty. Sometimes locker room leadership stems from player driven leadership and influence. Brady obviously has an unparalleled competitive drive and impeccable attention to detail. He's held in high regard by his teammates who are compelled to follow his leadership if they want to be a part of his journey.

Who knows but what I do know is you also had JE11, Gronk, Slater, DMC, High, KVN, Gilly, Chung, Andrews, Develin and Flowers.

Incredible the amt of locker room authority figures who have walked out that door these last few years.

No wonder punks like Jack Jones are gettin all bratty.