MNF 12/12 Pre-game thread: Pats @ Arizona

[RobertWeathers]

He's not passing the eye or gut test either.

That's not quantifiable. He def looks skiddish and unsure out there. I think a lot of that has to do with the line, playcalling and plays run without discipline.

I agree he's not getting much help in certain areas. But he has a strong complimentary running game and good receivers.

His line is very average at pass protection. The running game is spotty because of the line's inability to consistently open holes. Harris is always hurt and you overrate the talent at WR. Smith sucks.

His decision making and general awareness just looks really off this season. Things looked cleaner with Zappe for whatever reasons. I'm not convinced Zappe is the long term answer but I would go back to him for the remainder of this season right now. I'd probably be inclined to look for a veteran FA upgrade at quarterback heading into camp next season and consider trading Mac while holding onto to Zappe as the backup (and possibly the future quarterback). Sticking with Mac for this season and beyond shouldn't be considered a disaster at this point but there's legitimate doubt he can be a true franchise quarterback.

Of course there is doubt with Mac. No question. I'm not convinced he is "they guy' either but what I won't do is say he sucks and we should ditch him when there are so many sub-standard dependencies which are impacting his performance.

He is in his 2nd year and is still developing. He needs coaching and an experienced, smart QB-friendly coach.

 

[crawhammer]

That's not quantifiable. He def looks skiddish and unsure out there. I think a lot of that has to do with the line, playcalling and plays run without discipline.

His line is very average at pass protection. The running game is spotty because of the line's inability to consistently open holes. Harris is always hurt and you overrate the talent at WR. Smith sucks.

Of course there is doubt with Mac. No question. I'm not convinced he is "they guy' either but what I won't do is say he sucks and we should ditch him when there are so many sub-standard dependencies which are impacting his performance.

He is in his 2nd year and is still developing. He needs coaching and an experienced, smart QB-friendly coach.

I can appreciate what you're saying. You're making some good points. I do think Parker, Meyers, Bourne and Agholor at WR, Henry at the TE1, and Stevenson as a receiving RB should be good enough for a quarterback to have above average numbers. I agree the o-line and poor play-calling will mitigate the production. I think an experienced OC with credibility is a must heading into next season. But I'd also like to see a veteran FA quarterback brought in to possibly run the offense for 2-3 seasons while Zappe is developing as the next guy. This scenario would require trading Jones in the off-season. Alternatively though, if they move forward with Jones as the QB1, it could possibly work, but the new OC is a given, and they'll need a true elite WR1.

 

[ashley]

This scenario would require trading Jones in the off-season.

If we wanted to trade Jones, we're one year late. His value is at rock bottom now, last year coming off a pro bowl season as a rookie would have been the time.

 

[crawhammer]

If we wanted to trade Jones, we're one year late. His value is at rock bottom now, last year coming off a pro bowl season as a rookie would have been the time.

Yeah but trading him then would have made zero sense. I don't think he's getting traded this off-season but now at least they have Zappe in the mix. Again I like the idea of bringing in a FA quarterback for a 2-3 season window (or roughly the end of Belichick's career). But also I'm ok with Jones, a new OC, and adding a legit WR1.

 

[denverpatsfan]

Stopping the run isn't hard when Patricia doesn't call running plays. The Pats ran 14 times vs the Bills. Against the Vikings they ran 13 times. Stevenson had 5.1 YPC vs the Vikes and 5.4 YPC vs the Bills and ran it for a combined 17 times in those two games. Other teams don't need to stop the Patriots from running the ball. Patricia takes care of that just fine on his own.

It's a sin not to give Rham more touches. I don't get it.

 

[Sicilian]

If we wanted to trade Jones, we're one year late. His value is at rock bottom now, last year coming off a pro bowl season as a rookie would have been the time.

Which also would have been insane, using the 15th pick on a kid and then trading him after a pro bowl rookie season. Unless it was part of a package to bring in an established superstar QB, what would have been the point? And as we saw this offseason with Wentz, Wilson, and Ryan, that approach doesn't always work out like it did for the Rams with Stafford. Like, imagine if we'd traded Mac Jones and another first rounder for Russell Wilson, and then stuck him in this system behind this OL? People would be calling for heads even more than they are.

 

[signbabybrady]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but I don't think you guys are ready for the possibility that Bill might not give up on things after one year.

 

[ashley]

Yeah but trading him then would have made zero sense. I don't think he's getting traded this off-season but now at least they have Zappe in the mix. Again I like the idea of bringing in a FA quarterback for a 2-3 season window (or roughly the end of Belichick's career). But also I'm ok with Jones, a new OC, and adding a legit WR1.

Do you think we need a "true number 1" like Jefferson, Diggs, Adams, Chase, AJ Brown? I think our skilled position players are good enough if we have a good O-line to go along with a "full time Offensive Coordinator, and have our current receiving corps to match with Rham, Jonnu and Hunter.

 

[Nunchucks]

The offense is broken. Nobody would be able to run it. The players aren't being coached to run the offense propely, nevermind that the scheme is basic and sucks.

Patricia just don't know what he is doing. He should be going through each person's job on a play and tell them exactly what their job is and how to do with- with positional coaches. Clearly, that is not happening at the level of detail necessary.

Miscommunication on the 3rd play of the first drive is an indictment on coaching. Those first few plays are scripted...how can they faulk it up?

It's coaching. This season is lost. Patricia won't become a detail oriented hard arse offensive coach over night.. he doesn't understand why routes need to be run a certain way and he does not recognize the tiny mistakes being made - thus they remain uncorrected.

The same can be said about the OL coaching

Blame belichick, he deserves it...but the offense sucks because there is no offensive coordinator.

 

[Froob]

The offense is broken. Nobody would be able to run it. The players aren't being coached to run the offense propely, nevermind that the scheme is basic and sucks.

Patricia just don't know what he is doing. He should be going through each person's job on a play and tell them exactly what their job is and how to do with- with positional coaches. Clearly, that is not happening at the level of detail necessary.

Miscommunication on the 3rd play of the first drive is an indictment on coaching. Those first few plays are scripted...how can they faulk it up?

It's coaching. This season is lost. Patricia won't become a detail oriented hard arse offensive coach over night.. he doesn't understand why routes need to be run a certain way and he does not recognize the tiny mistakes being made - thus they remain uncorrected.

The same can be said about the OL coaching

Blame belichick, he deserves it...but the offense sucks because there is no offensive coordinator.

There is an offensive coordinator, he's also somehow the OL coach. So he's somehow handling two crucial full time positions and is underqualified for both of them.

There's not enough talk about how undermanned OL is with coaching. That's a full time important position.

 

[ashley]

Even if a sure fire franchise QB is sitting there?
Im not 100 percent convinced Robert believes in anybody on this team especially if they lose more than win at the end of the season.

I think where we'll end up picking all the top qb's will be gone. In this year's draft, not sure how many there are, but qb's usually go at the top, especially if their considered franchise players.

 

[ashley]

Do we play more Marcus Jones on offense?

 

[Nunchucks]

Do we play more Marcus Jones on offense?

Supposedly, Thorton is faster

 

[denverpatsfan]

Do we play more Marcus Jones on offense?

Yes please. Need to put the ball in his hands 4 times at least this coming Monday.

Then again this is the same offense who cant get the ball to the tight ends so probably wishful thinking on my part.

 

[Sicilian]

Supposedly, Thorton is faster

But not as shifty. But if your point is that they need to be drawing up plays that take better advantage of Thornton's speed, I'm with you 1000%.

 

[Nunchucks]

But not as shifty. But if your point is that they need to be drawing up plays that take better advantage of Thornton's speed, I'm with you 1000%.

Indeed...instead they run end around featuring Myers....wtf?

 

[Sicilian]

Yes please. Need to put the ball in his hands 4 times at least this coming Monday.

Then again this is the same offense who can get the ball to the tight ends so probably wishful thinking on my part.

I agree, but it needs to be in different ways. They went back to the WR screen well too many times and Buffalo got wise to it. They need to have like three different gadget plays that get the ball in his hands in different ways (but look similar to other plays they run). Give him a half step because the defense has to think more, and he'll do something with the space. Of course, this requires Patricia to design these and get guys to execute them properly, which he has not shown the ability to do.

 

[captain stone]

It's a sin not to give Rham more touches. I don't get it.

Something to consider, and I found eye-opening: We are 3rd-4th Worst in the entire league for yards-to-go on 2nd down, at about 8.1...

A big reason for that is all of our 1st-down runs up the middle, from a standing-position shotgun draw, without either momentum or a lead blocker, that go absolutely ****ing Nowhere...And behind Strange69 & Andrews/Thanksdad to boot... That's what I don't get.

 

[Patsfan177a]

We'll have a chance with ZAPPE I'm DONE with Mac Jones.

I thought Mac played well against the Bills. In fact most of the season given what his OL and OC issues have been. Has kept the fire through very tough times.

 

[crawhammer]

Do you think we need a "true number 1" like Jefferson, Diggs, Adams, Chase, AJ Brown? I think our skilled position players are good enough if we have a good O-line to go along with a "full time Offensive Coordinator, and have our current receiving corps to match with Rham, Jonnu and Hunter.

With what I believe to be Mac's ceiling then an elite WR1 is needed. You're naming the cream of crop there so yeah anyone on that list would do.

We mostly agree on the current skill position players, I like our WRs collectively with Henry and Stevenson adding to the passing game mix. I didn't like the Jonnu signing and he's done nothing to change my opinion. I think an above average, top-12ish quarterback could be successful with the current supporting class but that's also after a new OC is hired. Mac looks like a guy who would need a brilliant WR1 to reach his potential... unfortunately the 2023 WR FA class looks pretty thin at the moment.