How important is a #1 Target in today's NFL?

[PatsFanInVa]

I've said it before and I'll say it again because I repeat myself... you say after the season who your number 1 receiver is,, descriotively, not prescriptively. Otherwise you start having all these dedcisions to make like "how to get your #1 guy in a position where he can make plays." It's ass backward. And if nobody gets over 800 yards and 5 TDs but our pass game gets us 4500 total yards and 35 TDs (randomly highish numbers) that is fiiiiine,

Now that said, it is nice when you can point to a guy and say "he's good for 800 and a few TD," like with Bourne (if allowed to play,) like Meyers, like Agholor this year, from all appearances.

Even better if a guy just shows up with 100 yards and a TD every single week, in what the press guys would call "finally a true number 1" and about 2/3 of the guys here will say we were never anything until we landed player X, a real number 1.

but pop quiz, what do Wes Welker and Randy Moss have in common?

No SB rings with the Patriots.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

you coudnt see it over there but I just dropped a pen like it was a mic.

 

[jeremy2020]

Can someone point me to a top offense that doesn't have a '#1' pass catcher on it?

 

[crawhammer]

And if nobody gets over 800 yards and 5 TDs but our pass game gets us 4500 total yards and 35 TDs (randomly highish numbers) that is fiiiiine,

35 passing TDs?... the Patriots offense? I'll take the under with every cent I have on that one.

but pop quiz, what do Wes Welker and Randy Moss have in common?

No SB rings with the Patriots.

I was going to say no fault of their own but poor Wes dropped that game sealing pass in SB 46. However to be entirely fair with Wes he was overall an incredibly reliable and productive slot WR, the best in the history of the franchise. And when he was ripping it up with the Patriots (2010-2013), their offense was the best in the league, it was the defenses that were deteriorating.

Moss only had two full seasons with Brady, 2007 and 2009. He was practically unstoppable in 2007 and Brady was making his way back from the ACL in 2009 (yet Moss still led the NFL in TD receptions). Knocking Moss for not winning a SB ring with the Patriots is not reasonable. They were friggin 18-1 in 2007 and Moss was on the receiving end of what should have been a game-winning TD reception in SB 42.

 

[Bruins29]

Can someone point me to a top offense that doesn't have a '#1' pass catcher on it?

Can you point to me the definition of a "#1 pass catcher?" There does not seem to be a definition of one on Wiki etc...

 

[Jim Beankie]

Can someone point me to a top offense that doesn't have a '#1' pass catcher on it?

In addition to the post above, a definition of a top offense is also necessary (top place number in some team stat like points scored?).

 

[Rob0729]

I’d say huge, Diggs transformed Allen into a next level QB.

Diggs helped with Allen's progression into what he is today, but he didn't turn Allen from the train wreck he was his first two years to a top QB in the league.

 

[TomPatriot]

They were friggin 18-1 in 2007 and Moss was on the receiving end of what should have been a game-winning TD reception in SB 42.

This.

 

[Bruins29]

Actually, Asante was on the receiving end.......wait. Never mind.

WTF are we talking about this again for?

 

[crawhammer]

Can you point to me the definition of a "#1 pass catcher?" There does not seem to be a definition of one on Wiki etc...

You know it when you see it. I can understand your confusion watching the Patriots.

Every team in the NFL... who has a true WR1?:

Buffalo (Diggs)
Miami (Hill)
NE (none)
NYJ (Davis... barely)
Cleveland (Cooper)
Pittsburgh (Diontae Johnson)
Baltimore (none but Bateman has potential)
Cincinnati (Chase)
Jacksonville (none)
Indianapolis (Pittman Jr eventually)
Houston (Cooks)
Tennessee (none)
KC (none but Kelce is essentially a WR1)
Denver (none)
LA Chargers (Allen)
LV Raiders (Adams)
Philadelphia (A.J. Brown)
NYG (none)
Washington (McLarin)
Dallas (Lamb)
Minnesota (Jefferson)
Green Bay (none)
Detroit (none)
Chicago (none)
Tampa Bay (Godwin)
New Orleans (is Michael Thomas back to 100%?)
Carolina (none)
Atlanta (none)
Arizona (Hopkins)
LA Rams (Kupp)
Seattle (Metcalf)
SF (Deebo)

Some of these teams have a WR1a too... Chargers, Vikings, Bucs.

 

[TheRainMaker]

And when he was ripping it up with the Patriots (2010-2013), their offense was the best in the league, it was the defenses that were deteriorating.

2012 was Welker's last year. The defense was atrocious, but Tom and the offense underachieved in the big games in 2010-2012.

Moss only had two full seasons with Brady, 2007 and 2009. He was practically unstoppable in 2007 and Brady was making his way back from the ACL in 2009 (yet Moss still led the NFL in TD receptions). Knocking Moss for not winning a SB ring with the Patriots is not reasonable. They were friggin 18-1 in 2007 and Moss was on the receiving end of what should have been a game-winning TD reception in SB 42.

Defense was horrific all game as they were given turnovers galore, but could only get one. Eli tried very hard to lose that game tossing up a ton of INT's, but nobody on the Pats D were takers except Hobbs (who dropped one before getting an INT). The refs botching the Pierre Woods fumble recovery and Bill not challenging was infuriating. Bill having the Offense run a play chucking it downfield on a 4th and 13 instead of a opting for a makeable field goal at the Giants 31 was idiotic. The Pats were given one final chance to stop the Giants knowing they had to score a TD, but couldn't do it. The D absolutely choked.

 

[crawhammer]

2012 was Welker's last year. The defense was atrocious, but Tom and the offense underachieved in the big games in 2010-2012.

Right, their receiving corps in 2013 was terrible (really bad rookie class... Dobson, Boyce and Thompkins).

Brady averaged 300+ passing yards in the 2010-2012 postseasons to go along with 14 TDs so he wasn't all that bad. That 2010 loss to the Jets was ridiculous... that was the game Belichick benched Welker at the start and then they had that inexplicable fake punt from their own 38 with 1:14 left in the half. The Jets scored a TD there and put the Patriots in a hole at halftime. The defense let Sanchez carve them up on a crucial 4th quarter drive too. Defense was awful in 2012 postseason as well.

 

[BB8XSBW]

Some teams collect "true #1 WRs."

Others, like the Patriots, collect Lombardi trophies.

I'm personally more into collecting trophies.

 

[Bruins29]

You know it when you see it. I can understand your confusion watching the Patriots.

Every team in the NFL... who has a true WR1?:

Buffalo (Diggs)
Miami (Hill)
NE (none)
NYJ (Davis... barely)
Cleveland (Cooper)
Pittsburgh (Diontae Johnson)
Baltimore (none but Bateman has potential)
Cincinnati (Chase)
Jacksonville (none)
Indianapolis (Pittman Jr eventually)
Houston (Cooks)
Tennessee (none)
KC (none but Kelce is essentially a WR1)
Denver (none)
LA Chargers (Allen)
LV Raiders (Adams)
Philadelphia (A.J. Brown)
NYG (none)
Washington (McLarin)
Dallas (Lamb)
Minnesota (Jefferson)
Green Bay (none)
Detroit (none)
Chicago (none)
Tampa Bay (Godwin)
New Orleans (is Michael Thomas back to 100%?)
Carolina (none)
Atlanta (none)
Arizona (Hopkins)
LA Rams (Kupp)
Seattle (Metcalf)
SF (Deebo)

Some of these teams have a WR1a too... Chargers, Vikings, Bucs.

I am not confused. I see 6 championships. Sure I would love it if they spent 20 mil a year on some game breaking WR. Has it ever produced anything for us?

 

[VJCPatriot]

but pop quiz, what do Wes Welker and Randy Moss have in common?

No SB rings with the Patriots.

Wes Welker is NOT and has NEVER been a #1 WR. Randy Moss was robbed by the luckiest playoff catch of all time by the Tyree helmet catch. It doesn't change the fact that Moss set the record for TD receptions in a season, 23, and was the stud leading receiver for one of the most frightening and explosive offenses of all time.

You got MOSSED 2007:


The reality is that in today's NFL, if you don't have a #1 WR to carry the load, you can easily get game-planned and suffocated by the defense. They don't fear the long ball so their guys can creep up to the line of scrimmage making it hard to run, press your slot men with confidence, make the windows extra tight for Mac Jones, etc.

New England has been starved for WR talent for so long, mostly due to bad drafting, that people have given up on the idea of having a #1 WR. The closest we had to that in recent years was Brandin Cooks. He produced fine on the field but his lack of physicality exposed the fact that he wasn't a true #1 and that's why the Pats traded him away for just a draft pick. Unfortunately that 1st round pick we received in return was turned into underachieving and oft-injured OL Isaiah Wynn.

 

[crawhammer]

I am not confused. I see 6 championships. Sure I would love it if they spent 20 mil a year on some game breaking WR. Has it ever produced anything for us?

I was talking about the current team. Not two decades with the GOAT making everything look good. But to answer your question... yes. I mean christ they didn't win it all in 2007 but that Brady-Moss connection was epic for one season. Are we going to pretend that didn't happen because they lost the Super Bowl?

Look at what Cousins has done statistically with receivers like Thielen, Diggs and now Jefferson. He has a 102.6 passer rating in Minnesota, which would rank him 4th all-time. You'll say he only has 1 playoff win in Minnesota but it's hard to win when your defense ranks near the bottom every season.

My overall point is a true WR1 can make your quarterback (and offense) more productive, which usually means more points and a greater chance for success. Mac Jones might look a bit more like Joe Burrow if he had receivers like Chase and Higgins. Jones may also be a quarterback who steps up his own game in the biggest moments but he'll need the opportunities for us to find out. I don't think he's going to get too many with Agholor and Meyers. Especially with what Allen has going on with his receivers in Buffalo. I'll take anyone of those WR1s I listed (except for Cooks) and see where it takes Jones.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

You know it when you see it. I can understand your confusion watching the Patriots.

Every team in the NFL... who has a true WR1?:

Buffalo (Diggs)
Miami (Hill)
NE (none)
NYJ (Davis... barely)
Cleveland (Cooper)
Pittsburgh (Diontae Johnson)
Baltimore (none but Bateman has potential)
Cincinnati (Chase)
Jacksonville (none)
Indianapolis (Pittman Jr eventually)
Houston (Cooks)
Tennessee (none)
KC (none but Kelce is essentially a WR1)
Denver (none)
LA Chargers (Allen)
LV Raiders (Adams)
Philadelphia (A.J. Brown)
NYG (none)
Washington (McLarin)
Dallas (Lamb)
Minnesota (Jefferson)
Green Bay (none)
Detroit (none)
Chicago (none)
Tampa Bay (Godwin)
New Orleans (is Michael Thomas back to 100%?)
Carolina (none)
Atlanta (none)
Arizona (Hopkins)
LA Rams (Kupp)
Seattle (Metcalf)
SF (Deebo)

Some of these teams have a WR1a too... Chargers, Vikings, Bucs.

Davis is not a number 1 but their 10th overall pick Garrett Wilson is a number 1 and future star

 

[PatsFanInVa]

35 passing TDs?... the Patriots offense? I'll take the under with every cent I have on that one.


I was going to say no fault of their own but poor Wes dropped that game sealing pass in SB 46. However to be entirely fair with Wes he was overall an incredibly reliable and productive slot WR, the best in the history of the franchise. And when he was ripping it up with the Patriots (2010-2013), their offense was the best in the league, it was the defenses that were deteriorating.

Moss only had two full seasons with Brady, 2007 and 2009. He was practically unstoppable in 2007 and Brady was making his way back from the ACL in 2009 (yet Moss still led the NFL in TD receptions). Knocking Moss for not winning a SB ring with the Patriots is not reasonable. They were friggin 18-1 in 2007 and Moss was on the receiving end of what should have been a game-winning TD reception in SB 42.

Loved Moss, Loved Welker, but my brain exploded when I realized that neither of them had a ring.

Nobody's knocking them, and I'm sure not knocking the team's mgt (yeah that's BB) being able to add them on the cheap right in Tom's prime. We can only fantasize about what ifs -- what if there wasn't a helmet catch, what if there wasn't nonsense information warfare against us during the 18-1 season, peaking on the eve of the super bowl, and so on and so on.

I know, I know, we were all ready to win that game, frankly we DID win that game...

LOL, sometimes the fact is you lost the game.

Woulda coulda shoulda.

But my main point there wasn't that it "didn't work" to collect that talent. My point was, isn't it ironic that there were two eras sandwiching the "unstoppable" teams that Moss and Welker played on? Result? Woulda coulda shoulda. 3 of our 6 rings were from teams that "didn't have a no. 1 receiver" and the other 3 arguably were. Our best WR was our TE.

We sure didn't have Cooper Kupp. And by the way, Edelman? "Not a number 1" while Wes or Randy were in town. From 09-12 if you even mentioned him on here there was some douche shouting how he's not Welker even if YOU think they have the same shiftiness they're really sooooo different, love Edelman, but he's not a true number 1.

This is another Pats/Brady cost-saving... when he was at his best you could plug in most guys and get something out of them. Mac can't deliver that, certainly not yet and maybe not ever.

I will temper that, though, with, "WTF did happen with ochocinqo"

This year the quantity over number oneness tendency is on full display. I hope we let Bourne play with his friends, I hope Thornton comes back soon and fully healed, I hope Parker gets on the same page as Mac, etc. When I finally saw the game it was so obvious that the O Line finally clicked, and man it was nice to watch the outside runs working. I hope Mac un-regresses and this offense becomes good, not just "good enough given the defense."

But no, the only approach is not to get "A True Number 1," and that historically hasn't been the approach in NE -- only Moss broke that mold, and he was pretty reasonably priced for a superstar.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Wes Welker is NOT and has NEVER been a #1 WR. Randy Moss was robbed by the luckiest playoff catch of all time by the Tyree helmet catch. It doesn't change the fact that Moss set the record for TD receptions in a season, 23, and was the stud leading receiver for one of the most frightening and explosive offenses of all time.

You got MOSSED 2007:


The reality is that in today's NFL, if you don't have a #1 WR to carry the load, you can easily get game-planned and suffocated by the defense. They don't fear the long ball so their guys can creep up to the line of scrimmage making it hard to run, press your slot men with confidence, make the windows extra tight for Mac Jones, etc.

New England has been starved for WR talent for so long, mostly due to bad drafting, that people have given up on the idea of having a #1 WR. The closest we had to that in recent years was Brandin Cooks. He produced fine on the field but his lack of physicality exposed the fact that he wasn't a true #1 and that's why the Pats traded him away for just a draft pick. Unfortunately that 1st round pick we received in return was turned into underachieving and oft-injured OL Isaiah Wynn.

Ahhhhh but thanks for the video link. Those were the days. I mean, until that last game.

 

[PScottman]

but it's hard to win when your defense ranks near the bottom every season.

And pray tell why can't they field a defense...is it bad drafting of positions other than WR perhaps? Cap mismanagement (even if they push into future years to fudge said cap somewhat)? Why can't that #1 WR overcome that bad defense - they're the biggest reason teams win right????

Your own comment demonstrates its a TEAM game. Does a #1 WR help? Yep, same a "#1 TE" or a "#1 CB" or a "#1 DT/DE".

The fixation on WRs as the savior of any team is solely because of fantasy football.

Teams win football games. The OL has to block. The QB has to deliver the pass. The defense has to make any points stand up. ALL of those things have to happen week in and week out and if any of them are below par - they are exploited leaving the #1WR unable to do much about it.