Dan Shaughnessy: Biggest douche bag of them all?

[crawhammer]

While that’s a stupid statement, those banners are not a symbol of honor either.

The banners represent the Brady era in franchise history (he's the only Patriots player with 6 rings... no other player has more than 3). This is a Patriots fan forum, correct? Brady's the most significant piece of the team's success for two decades. Seems pretty harsh for Patriots fans to be saying he has "no honor" over this one situation that unfolded over the course of one forgettable season.

 

[Ring 6]

The banners represent the Brady era in franchise history (he's the only Patriots player with 6 rings... no other player has more than 3). This is a Patriots fan forum, correct? Brady's the most significant piece of the team's success for two decades. Seems pretty harsh for Patriots fans to be saying he has "no honor" over this one situation that unfolded over the course of one forgettable season.

It does, but whether he has honor or not is irrelevant to the rings. Honor is not a requirement.
Everyone has their own definition of honor. It has no place in this discussion just as thinking that anything that happened in 2019 has anything to work the 6 championships.

 

[Kontradiction]

Relevance in this issue is simple -
Did the Miami Dolphins tamper with Tom Brady? Yes.
Did they have repeated conversations over the course of 2019, when he was under exclusive contract with the Patriots? Yes.
Did Tom Brady know at that point the Patriots held his exclusive negotiating rights? Yes.

Yes. We know the Dolphins contacted Brady. We don’t know that Brady engaged them. Chances are that he didn’t, because he is not there. At what point have I “misrepresented the facts” and how do you plan to offer up evidence of such a misrepresentation? Or was that just a red herring?

Tamper Brady not signing in Miami has zero relevance. The end result does not matter.

The end result is the most relevant part if you believe that the two sides were seriously talking. You considered it plenty relevant when you made your prediction that he’d be in Miami if he plays next year. Just not now because the debate isn’t going in your favor.

What matters is the repeated contacts between the two.

So what are you willfully misrepresenting?
Point 1

Brady signed in Miami? When did that happen?

Point 3 (you finally rephrased it, so I will let it pass)

I’ve phrased it that way the entire thread.

From Thursday…

Point 4 (It takes 1 to tamper but it takes two to have multiple & detailed conversations)

You said throughout the thread that it takes two to tamper. It doesn’t. It takes one to tamper. It takes one party to put detail into the conversation, and they can reach out multiple times. It doesn’t mean the other party responded in the affirmative. It doesn’t mean the other party engaged them in contract talks. If they did, Occam’s Razor says they’d be in Miami.

Point 7 - complete and utter BS. A conversation is not a one way street.

You’ve clearly never had a crazy ex, then. I’m happy for you.

So? The point stands. Mary Jo White is not Ted Wells.

And Roger Goodell is still Roger Goodell. At the end of the day, they still work on behalf of the NFL.

Pretty much how I see it, based on the known facts.
Do I think it was a **** move by Brady to have ongoing negotiations with a division rival? Sure do.
Do I think it was a **** move by the Patriots tampering with BB, if indeed that was the case? Sure don't. One benefits my team, the other doesn't.

Right. So you’re not willing to be unbiased, which is the point I’ve made from the outset. Why you’re continually banging your head against the wall afterward is beyond me.

So what was the negative impact? I see the negative impact in Bradys unwillingness to negotiate at all with the team after the 2 year/53 million dollar contract offer was made. By that point he already knew that other teams were interested in a 43 year old quarterback coming off a down year....

1. He told them what he wanted after 2017 and 2018. They opted not to give him that. That’s on the team.

2. The franchise tag got taken off the table before Miami reportedly reached out to him.

Once you know something like that, it works to your advantage. If it works to Bradys advantage, then it become a disadvantage to the Patriots. Even if its just 1% of his decision making process, its enough.

There’s no proof the conversations were a two-way street that derailed a contract negotiation. Moreover, what advantage could he have possibly enjoyed if the team wasn’t willing to move off its 2018 offer, and never made another offer in the 2019 offseason? I’ll save the breath - there would be no advantage. If there were, Occam’s Razor says he’d be in Miami.

No negotiations because he already knew he had at least one landing spot...

Then why didn’t he land there? And why are there no reports that the team extended him another offer in the 2019 offseason? Or that he refused to negotiate with them in the 2019 offseason?

And a prudent person would ask - If he did this with Miami, did he do it with other teams?

There’s not even proof he had serious discussions with Miami at this point. You might want to try to prove that before you move on to accusing him of flirting with other teams.

Nope, no emotion.

Your posts bleed emotion. Unless you say YASSSSSSSS and toss in some ad hominem without emotion, which is doubtful.

But your defense of Brady shows that you get quite emotional over any criticism leveled at him.

I’d defend any player on any team in the same scenario.

And again, the destination becomes irrelevant. Its the act in and of itself which is the important aspect.

If there was an act that was as detailed as you're trying to have us believe, then the destination is very relevant. But you know this. You just don't like it.

It was an offer made in the 2019 preseason. But there was no reply. Strange how that coincided with the tampering conversations with Miami, isn't it?

He agreed to terms on what was basically a one year deal with the Patriots on August 4, 2019. It was the same offer. There was no new offer in the 2019 offseason. This was also when he saw the writing on the wall and asked them not to franchise him. If you’re trying to paint the tampering as having harmed negotiations with the Patriots, the timeline is not working in your favor.

Tom Brady agrees to contract extension with Patriots

For his 42nd birthday, Tom Brady received a special gift from the New England Patriots: a long-awaited contract extension.The future Hall of Fame quarterback agreed to terms on a two-year extension with New England on Sunday.

www.nfl.com

lol. did you type that with a straight face?

Not sure. Like I said, between a baby, a pregnant wife, a new baby due any minute, hobbies, work, etc, I’m pretty busy and don’t have time to keep track of my facial expressions on PatsFans.com. Should I ask you if you type your posts with tears in your eyes? That would be equally as irrelevant to the point at hand.

I said I wasn't rooting for him before he left? Huh. News to me. Oh well - why don't you go dig thru some more of my posting history see if you can find that, maybe try to use it against me? If you do great; regardless of what I may or may not have said in 2019/early 2020 - just so everyone is clear - I am not rooting for him now.

So, whether or not some here think I am biased is irrelevant to me.

You are biased. That’s been proven, admitted, and shown to you throughout the thread. You’ve even owned it with the “one is good for my team and the other isn’t” remarks. There’s nothing wrong with that, either. Just don’t try to pass your biases off as fact.

The easily offended are free to block me if they don't like what I have to say.

The ignore option is for the weak. I’d rather have conversations with people I don’t agree with. That’s how you learn.

 

[Kontradiction]

We disagree, pretty much across the board.

Fair enough.

 

[Pape]

Yes. We know the Dolphins contacted Brady. We don’t know that Brady engaged them. Chances are that he didn’t, because he is not there. At what point have I “misrepresented the facts” and how do you plan to offer up evidence of such a misrepresentation? Or was that just a red herring?

I tire of this back and forth. For the last, as I am done repeating myself - Your entire argument is based on the faulty misconception that bradys ultimate destination is relevant to the argument. It isn't. It never was. It never will be. The relevant issue is tampering occurred, and brady was a party to it, end of story.

I understand that I will not convince you of that since you are unwilling to see anything wrong with Bradys behavior, which, to me, is mind boggling.

 

[Kontradiction]

I tire of this back and forth. For the last, as I am done repeating myself - Your entire argument is based on the faulty misconception that bradys ultimate destination is relevant to the argument.

If the conversation was a two-way street and as detailed as you’re making it out to be (without evidence), there is nothing more relevant.

It isn't. It never was. It never will be. The relevant issue is tampering occurred, and brady was a party to it, end of story.

Yeah. The Dolphins reached out to him, and were punished accordingly. The CBA actually affords them room to challenge the ruling since it stipulates that the Commissioner can, and should, consider whether the player contacted ended up with the club or not.

I understand that I will not convince you of that since you are unwilling to see anything wrong with Bradys behavior, which, to me, is mind boggling.

Not true. I told you before that I would happily concede if given evidence that there were detailed talks about a contract. In the absence of that, I’m not willing to judge harshly based off of conjecture, guesswork, or conspiracy from Pats fans who are clearly still not over the fact that he left.

 

[Wozzy]

Yes. We know the Dolphins contacted Brady. We don’t know that Brady engaged them. Chances are that he didn’t, because he is not there. At what point have I “misrepresented the facts” and how do you plan to offer up evidence of such a misrepresentation? Or was that just a red herring?

Brady was sitting on Steven Ross's yacht waiting with him to sandbag head coach Brian Flores to convince him to sign Tom... but you don't consider that "engagement?"

I could care less about tampering, it happens all the time. The Pats (and Tom) undoubtedly tampered with AB in 2019 to get him to New England... who cares. But the way you Brady white knights have bent over backwards to defend him is funny stuff.

You realize the guy is human yeah, he really can't extend your life, cure covid or concussions right?

 

[Kontradiction]

Brady was sitting on Steven Ross's yacht waiting with him to sandbag head coach Brian Flores to convince him to sign Tom... but you don't consider that "engagement?"

I could care less about tampering, it happens all the time. The Pats (and Tom) undoubtedly tampered with AB in 2019 to get him to New England... who cares. But the way you Brady white knights have bent over backwards to defend him is funny stuff.

You realize the guy is human yeah, he really can't extend your life, cure covid or concussions right?

That was after the season was over for Brady and the Patriots. Flores was also on the yacht. We’re talking about engaging with them in August of 2019. Try to keep up.

 

[Wozzy]

That was after the season was over for Brady and the Patriots. Flores was also on the yacht. We’re talking about engaging with them in August of 2019. Try to keep up.

It's been proven they spoke prior to that... try to keep up.

 

[Kontradiction]

It's been proven they spoke prior to that... try to keep up.

Cool. Show me the transcripts and explain to me why he didn’t sign with them even though they had $100M and a year’s head start. Maybe you can do better.

 

[Wozzy]

Cool. Show me the transcripts and explain to me why he didn’t sign with them even though they had $100M and a year’s head start. Maybe you can do better.

Copy/pasted directly from the investigation findings...

"The Dolphins has impermissible communications with quarterback Tom Brady in 2019-2020, while he was under contract to the New England Patriots. These communications began as early as August 2019 and continued throughout the 2019 season and post-season. These numerous and detailed discussions were conducted by Mr. Beal, who in turn kept Mr. Ross and other Dolphins executives informed of his discussions with Mr. Brady."

Why he didn't sign with them? Because Brian Flores wanted to draft a rookie QB and was dedicated to a long term rebuild. He did exactly that taking Tua with his first pick that offseason. This all came out in discovery.

What else did you want to discuss or be wrong about?

 

[Kontradiction]

Right. They don’t exist. But go ahead and draw and quarter the dude if it makes you feel better about thinking that being a big Patriots fan is a winning personality trait.

 

[Wozzy]

Right. They don’t exist. But go ahead and draw and quarter the dude if it makes you feel better about thinking that being a big Patriots fan is a winning personality trait.

Like I said, I could care less about tampering, it happens all the time but they just happened to have gotten caught and frankly they’re getting penalized more for tanking.

But pretending facts don’t exist is some real Brady body pillow fanboy nonsense. You get the superfan award for today!

 

[Kontradiction]

Copy/pasted directly from the investigation findings...

"The Dolphins has impermissible communications with quarterback Tom Brady in 2019-2020, while he was under contract to the New England Patriots. These communications began as early as August 2019 and continued throughout the 2019 season and post-season. These numerous and detailed discussions were conducted by Mr. Beal, who in turn kept Mr. Ross and other Dolphins executives informed of his discussions with Mr. Brady."

Why he didn't sign with them? Because Brian Flores wanted to draft a rookie QB and was dedicated to a long term rebuild. He did exactly that taking Tua with his first pick that offseason. This all came out in discovery.

What else did you want to discuss or be wrong about?

Interesting. So you think Brian Flores overruled Stephen Ross and did not want Tom Brady to come in and win with, and that he would have rather had Tua? And he kept his job after that? That might be the weakest conjecture yet. It doesn’t have any basis in reality unless you can produce proof of that, as well. I won’t hold my breath.

The same NFL investigation that you’re pinning your hopes on here also found that Flores was not offered $100k to throw games, even though he claimed that was also the case. Whether you want to pin your argument on the league or Flores (you can’t do both), it doesn’t hold water.

Now, without trending toward mere guesswork, conjecture, or conspiracy theory that a proven liar (since you trust NFL officials so much) could overrule his office and turn down the GOAT to run his offense, why don’t you tell me why such detailed conversations didn’t end with Brady signing in Miami.

 

[Wozzy]

Interesting. So you think Brian Flores overruled Stephen Ross and did not want Tom Brady to come in and win with, and that he would have rather had Tua? And he kept his job after that? That might be the weakest conjecture yet. It doesn’t have any basis in reality unless you can produce proof of that, as well. I won’t hold my breath.

The same NFL investigation that you’re pinning your hopes on here also found that Flores was not offered $100k to throw games, even though he claimed that was also the case. Whether you want to pin your argument on the league or Flores (you can’t do both), it doesn’t hold water.

Now, without trending toward mere guesswork, conjecture, or conspiracy theory that a proven liar (since you trust NFL officials so much) could overrule his office and turn down the GOAT to run his offense, why don’t you tell me why such detailed conversations didn’t end with Brady signing in Miami.

This isn't a debate, the facts are in... the league's arbitrary investigator ruled and the team has already been penalized.

But fanboys gonna fanboy...

 

[Kontradiction]

Like I said, I could care less about tampering, it happens all the time but they just happened to have gotten caught and frankly they’re getting penalized more for tanking.

Right. So, it wasn’t that Flores overruled Ross and would have rather had Tua. Thanks for the laugh. It was that “he didn’t want to tamper.” That statement says nothing about Brady’s level of involvement in Miami talking to him, nor does it answer the question of why he isn’t there if the conversations were as detailed as you claim. But keep pretending like he was in a position to overrule Ross when the same league investigation said he lied about the tanking charges.

But pretending facts don’t exist is some real Brady body pillow fanboy nonsense. You get the superfan award for today!

Comedy gold coming from the guy whose last recorded issue with BB was April of 2014.

This isn't a debate, the facts are in... the league's arbitrary investigator ruled and the team has already been penalized.

But fanboys gonna fanboy...

Yes. Miami has been penalized. Brady has not, didn’t sign with Miami, took a job as a broadcaster post-retirement, and the team hasn’t asked for compensation nor commented publicly on it outside of their run-of-the-mill press releases.

 

[Wozzy]

Proving yet again ^ that for 20 years Tom never threw a bad pass, never made a mistake, never needed help from anyone else... the guy poops golden nuggets and pisses liquid platinum.

 

[Kontradiction]

Proving yet again ^ that for 20 years Tom never threw a bad pass, never made a mistake, never needed help from anyone else... the guy poops golden nuggets and pisses liquid platinum.

I guess you could come to that conclusion if you have a 70 IQ. The funny thing is that I’m not even defending him. You’re just doing your usual dog and pony show of setting up a straw man. I’ve even said in this thread that if more info (like the transcripts) came out, I’d concede and admit I was wrong. I’m just not willing to draw and quarter him with what we know now and where he ended up. Especially when my opponents in this thread can’t make the pieces logically fit together without speculating or dropping a conspiracy theory of some sort.

Congrats on being the #1 biggest Pats fan, though. It’s definitely a great personality trait. I’m sure it will lead to your dreams coming true some day, and that BB will show up at your door and blast those ample cheeks to your heart’s content.

 

[Wozzy]

The funny thing is that I’m not even defending him. I’ve even said that if more info (like the transcripts) came out, I’d concede and admit I was wrong. I’m just not willing to draw and quarter him with what we know now and where he ended up. Especially when my opponents in this thread can’t make the pieces logically fit together without speculating or dropping a conspiracy theory of some sort.

Congrats on being the #1 biggest Pats fan, though. It’s definitely a great personality trait. I’m sure it will lead to your dreams coming true some day, and that BB will show up at your door and blast those ample cheeks to your heart’s content.

You’re saying something proven factually true and that unquestionably happened didn’t.

This isn’t up for debate. the league already made the evidence known. You’ve already been proven wrong, but your rabid fandom won’t let you admit the truth. Instead it’s a “conspiracy theory” lol!

In other news concussion water doesn’t work and vitamins while good for you don’t cure covid.

 

[Kontradiction]

You’re saying something proven factually true and that unquestionably happened didn’t.

I’m saying there’s no proof that a detailed, two-way conversation with Brady actively discussing a contract happened. That’s buttressed by the fact that he didn’t sign there when he could have. You seem to think that a lame duck coach could have overruled Ross. There’s no evidence of that either. As a matter of fact, it’s a laughable contention.

This isn’t up for debate. the league already made the evidence known.

Yep. And they didn’t punish Brady or Payton for it. They only punished Miami. Brady’s level of involvement is very much up for debate since the transcripts are available for public consumption and he didn’t sign in Miami.

You’ve already been proven wrong, but your rabid fandom won’t let you admit the truth.

I have? I’m pretty clearly on the logical side of this debate. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have felt the need to jump in. Proving me wrong would entail Brady either signing in Miami in 2020 (he didn’t) or more proof coming out. The transcripts would be helpful.

Instead it’s a “conspiracy theory” lol!

What else would you call a theory that he didn’t sign in Miami because a lame duck coach overruled the owner? I could call it “crap” or “idiotic,” but I’m trying to be nice.

In other news concussion water doesn’t work and vitamins while good for you don’t cure covid.

Do the other morbidly obese involuntary celibates in your over-40 Patriots chat room find this material funny? Go outside and let your feet touch grass. There’s more to life than rooting for the Patriots.