Is our defense this good?

[One-If-By-Sea]

2001-04 they had law/asante at the end. 14 they had Revis, 16 butler 18 Gilmore. All of which were all pro caliber players.

Butler being an All Pro in '16 is a stretch, but your overall comment is valid. We will see. I agree having All Pro players is better than not having them, but that is not always possible. Having a balanced roster, not a few All Pro players with less than average players behind them, is better IMO and I think that is why the Pats were successful over 20 year. Seems like the Pats are re-building that same approach around Mac. Even if we have to wait until 2023 (lots of cap space) that is a quick rebuild. This year's roster is much better than 2021, lots of young improving players, lots more speed, and it seems like a great locker room. In the NFL younger players have to be integrated, we are doing that.

 

[All3Phases]

Butler being an All Pro in '16 is a stretch, but your overall comment is valid. We will see. I agree having All Pro players is better than not having them, but that is not always possible. Having a balanced roster, not a few All Pro players with less than average players behind them, is better IMO and I think that is why the Pats were successful over 20 year. Seems like the Pats are re-building that same approach around Mac. Even if we have to wait until 2023 (lots of cap space) that is a quick rebuild. This year's roster is much better than 2021, lots of young improving players, lots more speed, and it seems like a great locker room. In the NFL younger players have to be integrated, we are doing that.

Its not a stretch, he was an all pro

 

[TheRainMaker]

Its not a stretch, he was an all pro

He was really good in 2015 as well on a team that was their best defense of 2nd dynasty run. Had they not had major injuries, they would've had the #1 seed and stampeded their way through the playoffs.

2017 was where the drop off started.

 

[PatsFan2]

Is our defense this good?​

 

[archstanton543]

Is our defense this good?​

Probably not.

 

[PatsFan2]

Probably not.

I can dream can't I?

 

[captain stone]

Interesting, that defense sure played terrible against the Titans, Bucs, Browns, and Chargers last year. If only those teams were above. 500...

Opponents’ injuries, bad weather, and the Chargers HC is a ****ing idiot.

 

[goheels22002]

There have been lots of posts about deficiencies at LB last year. So how is losing all experience at being mediocre a bad thing?

I think we'll be quite pleased at the upgrades in the LB corps that is designed to defend against what offenses capitalized on last season. There's not only speed and quickness, there's depth in the LB group that gives Belichick the freedom to go 2-5, 3-4 or 4-3 as needed. Matthew Judon needed help last season as teams determined that he was the primary pass rusher. There are so many ways to bring pressure with the younger, faster LB group we see at camp.

Also, the safeties are outstanding and can really tackle or step up to bring pressure at the line of scrimmage.

Moving on from the bigger, older guys was necessary.

 

[All3Phases]

Every season Stephon Gilmore played in Buffalo on terrible defenses he was better than Malcolm Butler... every. single. one.

He was better even when he wasn't making Pro Bowls/All Pro Teams and Butler was.

He was better at birth.

Butler got recognition because he was on the best team, Gilmore didn't suddenly and magically get good when he arrived in New England.

This is why BB paid Gilmore and not Butler like one of the best corners in the league... because it's a team sport.

You are arguing nothing, Butler was an all pro corner in 2016. You can’t take that away from him, he had a great year. Players from bad teams can be all pros. AJ Terrell was an all pro this year, again there’s more than 1 great player in the league.

You telling me Gilmore was better than Butler is irrelevant, in 2016 they had a great cornerback on their roster. This year they do not. They will be playing a conservative zone and we both know it. They are rarely dominant pass rushing team with the responsibilities players have here, and you know that.

 

[Wozzy]

You are arguing nothing, Butler was an all pro corner in 2016. You can’t take that away from him, he had a great year. Players from bad teams can be all pros. AJ Terrell was an all pro this year, again there’s more than 1 great player in the league.

You telling me Gilmore was better than Butler is irrelevant, in 2016 they had a great cornerback on their roster. This year they do not. They will be playing a conservative zone and we both know it. They are rarely dominant pass rushing team with the responsibilities players have here, and you know that.

You're ignoring everything I say and repeating your talking points over and over, that's why this conversation will go nowhere.

An All Pro nod for Butler doesn't turn his 4.5 forty into a 4.3 forty, it doesn't turn his average agility into world class agility... what it means is he overachieved for a season or two and voters gave him a nod based on how well the team and defensive unit was. His career high (that season) INT's is 4, he was a solid tackler and played his heart out... good for him. I'd much rather take the hyper talented guy on a bad defense, like Gilmore. He's a better player every time they take the field... that's why BB paid Gilmore and not Butler a max deal.

Let's agree to disagree at this point... the back and forth is pointless if you think an arbitrary Pro Bowl nod made Butler better than he actually was.

 

[All3Phases]

You're ignoring everything I say and repeating your talking points over and over, that's why this conversation will go nowhere.

An All Pro nod for Butler doesn't turn his 4.5 forty into a 4.3 forty, it doesn't turn his average agility into world class agility... what it means is he overachieved for a season or two and voters gave him a nod based on how well the team and defensive unit was. His career high (that season) INT's is 4, he was a solid tackler and played his heart out... good for him. I'd much rather take the hyper talented guy on a bad defense, like Gilmore. He's a better player every time they take the field... that's why BB paid Gilmore and not Butler a max deal.

Let's agree to disagree at this point... the back and forth is pointless if you think an arbitrary Pro Bowl nod made Butler better than he actually was.

All youve done is say youd rather have Gilmore, great...Whos arguing that? All I said is every year theyve won the super bowl, they had a great corner on their roster. The 40 time doesnt make you an all pro. In 2016, Butler was an all pro corner back. Factually. As for your last line, you seem to be the one talking in circles, what I said is a fact, and also not sure what a pro bowl nod has to do with anything? You read what I write correct?

 

[Wozzy]

All youve done is say youd rather have Gilmore, great...Whos arguing that? All I said is every year theyve won the super bowl, they had a great corner on their roster. The 40 time doesnt make you an all pro. In 2016, Butler was an all pro corner back. Factually. As for your last line, you seem to be the one talking in circles, what I said is a fact, and also not sure what a pro bowl nod has to do with anything? You read what I write correct?

Do you think Milli Vanilli winning a Grammy one year made them a better musicians?

Butler played well but was never "great," Logan Ryan was opposite him and he was "good" also... probably played just as well as Butler. What was great about that 2016 defense was their team defense... their ability to prevent points.

Again... agree to disagree.

 

[All3Phases]

Do you think Milli Vanilli winning a Grammy one year made them a better musicians?

Butler played well but was never "great," Logan Ryan was opposite him and he was "good" also... probably played just as well as Butler. What was great about that 2016 defense was their team defense... their ability to prevent points.

Again... agree to disagree.

How many all pros have ****ty years the year they won? Logan Ryan is irrelevant here, he was never their top corner. You telling me he wasnt great has nothing to do with what Im saying.

In 2016, Butler was great, he was an All Pro player. His prime was short, we agree...But he was great in his short prime

 

[Wozzy]

How many all pros have ****ty years the year they won? Logan Ryan is irrelevant here, he was never their top corner. You telling me he wasnt great has nothing to do with what Im saying.

In 2016, Butler was great, he was an All Pro player. His prime was short, we agree...But he was great in his short prime

A career high 4 INT's = great.... sure.

 

[All3Phases]

A career high 4 INT's = great.... sure.

So you are basing a CBs year off INT? Surely Kyle Arrington was a great player then. Revis Career high is 6, once. Hes been a perennial all pro and had multiple years with less than 4. Won it in a year with 0. Odd argument here

 

[Wozzy]

So you are basing a CBs year off INT? Surely Kyle Arrington was a great player then. Revis Career high is 6, once. Hes been a perennial all pro and had multiple years with less than 4. Odd argument here

Good grief...

 

[All3Phases]

Good grief...

You are bending over backwards to try and disprove history. Let me know how it works out for you. You resorted to gifs when you realize that your weird argument fell flat on its face

 

[Keyser Söze]

Hell no

 

[Pats2000]

You are arguing nothing, Butler was an all pro corner in 2016. You can’t take that away from him, he had a great year. Players from bad teams can be all pros. AJ Terrell was an all pro this year, again there’s more than 1 great player in the league.

You telling me Gilmore was better than Butler is irrelevant, in 2016 they had a great cornerback on their roster. This year they do not. They will be playing a conservative zone and we both know it. They are rarely dominant pass rushing team with the responsibilities players have here, and you know that.

Will you come back and admit you're wrong when they are in man coverage over 50% of the time

 

[All3Phases]

Will you come back and admit you're wrong when they are in man coverage over 50% of the time

Will you? You realized they finished off the year last year playing mostly zone heavy defense right?