Is our defense this good?

[All3Phases]

Browns were not a .500 team. They got two beat downs by the Bills and bullied against the Colts and Dolphins late in the year. They were 3-8 against teams above .500. 6 of their 7 regular season losses came against teams above .500. The defense is clearly worse than last year and is not instantly better because they now have “speed” at LB which is another bizarre narrative thrown around here. Does Gary Guyton ring a bell? Mack Wilson lost his job to another mediocre LB in Cleveland. McMillan is a journeyman who is always injured and former 5th round pick coming off of another torn ACL should not be relied upon. Bill’s priority this off-season was helping Mac even if it meant ignoring the defense.

I think a sneaky thing that will hurt is BB placing more time/effort on the offense which will not help the defense either

 

[Wozzy]

So you agree, in his prime he was an all pro corner? Good. When he fell off, they had probably the best corner in the league on the roster. Which again, points to the fact every year they won a SB theyve had a great corner on the roster. Mills and Mitchell have been in the league for a while, they arent going to randomly become great players

No, I already said in his prime Butler was “good” not “great” and severely overrated.

He was never a supreme athlete like Gilmore who glides next to a WR with ease, Butler was an effort and technique guy who played to his peak and got overrated because the defense around him was the best in the NFL in 2016.

Mills and Mitchell have exclusively played on bad teams until they came to NE, if they play well this season and earn kudos the only real thing that will have changed around them will be the quality of team.

Butler, Logan Ryan… these guys go to other teams and suddenly they’re human again… that’s not coincidence.

 

[Pats2000]

Browns were not a .500 team. They got two beat downs by the Bills and bullied against the Colts and Dolphins late in the year. They were 3-8 against teams above .500. 6 of their 7 regular season losses came against teams above .500. The defense is clearly worse than last year and is not instantly better because they now have “speed” at LB which is another bizarre narrative thrown around here. Does Gary Guyton ring a bell? Mack Wilson lost his job to another mediocre LB in Cleveland. McMillan is a journeyman who is always injured and former 5th round pick coming off of another torn ACL should not be relied upon. Bill’s priority this off-season was helping Mac even if it meant ignoring the defense.

Yeah, and where they really got killed was over the middle and in the slot. The LB's were old and slow and Bryant was getting torched by faster slot guys against the Bills.

If you want to take the attitude that the team is doomed forever, that's on you. The Pats got at least faster, we'll see if better at the positions they needed to. It was speed that was killing them.

 

[All3Phases]

Yeah, and where they really got killed was over the middle and in the slot. The LB's were old and slow and Bryant was getting torched by faster slot guys against the Bills.

If you want to take the attitude that the team is doomed forever, that's on you. The Pats got at least faster, we'll see if better at the positions they needed to. It was speed that was killing them.

I agree they physically got faster up the middle/sideline to sideline, that doesnt mean theyll play faster on the field or be in the correct spot/make plays. Thats really my point on the LBs.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Yeah, and where they really got killed was over the middle and in the slot. The LB's were old and slow and Bryant was getting torched by faster slot guys against the Bills.

The defense couldn’t stop the run either.

If you want to take the attitude that the team is doomed forever, that's on you.

Why go to that extreme when I never mentioned that?

 

[Pats2000]

The defense couldn’t stop the run either.

Why go to that extreme when I never mentioned that?

Hence old slow linebackers

 

[Pats2000]

I agree they physically got faster up the middle/sideline to sideline, that doesnt mean theyll play faster on the field or be in the correct spot/make plays. Thats really my point on the LBs.

Doesn't mean they won't play up to their potential either

 

[Nunchucks]

Doesn't mean they won't play up to their potential either

I dont understand going into tc full of negativity. It's tc, this is the best time of the year, every team is in contention. Enjoy it.

 

[n6249c]

? The secondary has gotten worse, and they lost all experience essentially at LB. Missing random players here and there dont mean its ok to never force a team to punt

There have been lots of posts about deficiencies at LB last year. So how is losing all experience at being mediocre a bad thing?

 

[TheRainMaker]

Hence old slow linebackers

D-line was bad too.

 

[All3Phases]

No, I already said in his prime Butler was “good” not “great” and severely overrated.

He was never a supreme athlete like Gilmore who glides next to a WR with ease, Butler was an effort and technique guy who played to his peak and got overrated because the defense around him was the best in the NFL in 2016.

Mills and Mitchell have exclusively played on bad teams until they came to NE, if they play well this season and earn kudos the only real thing that will have changed around them will be the quality of team.

Butler, Logan Ryan… these guys go to other teams and suddenly they’re human again… that’s not coincidence.

Theres nothing to not agree with. Its a fact, he was an all pro in 2016. You keep bringing up Logan Ryan for some reason, he was never a great player and I never claimed he was. He was also never the best player in their secondary.

Butler going to a different team, after you admitted his prime ended 2 years before? Why is that relevant? Corners cant be good on bad teams?

 

[Wozzy]

Theres nothing to not agree with. Its a fact, he was an all pro in 2016. You keep bringing up Logan Ryan for some reason, he was never a great player and I never claimed he was. He was also never the best player in their secondary.

Butler going to a different team, after you admitted his prime ended 2 years before? Why is that relevant? Corners cant be good on bad teams?

Brandon Meriweather played 4 years in New England, went to 2 Pro Bowls... he left and never approached his career best tackle or INT totals again, never saw another Pro Bowl.

Players get credited (or overrated) due to team success all the time.

Gilmore never had a season like his DPOY season in New England, in fact he made one Pro Bowl in five seasons in Buffalo. He made 3 Pro Bowls and two All Pro teams in New England. So no, corners never look as good on bad teams as they do on good teams... which makes sense given football starts at the line of scrimmage and works backwards.

Butler's prime didn't end as much as he was exposed for being who he was, good for two seasons and average after that. That's why he was an UDFA, if he was a superior athlete he would have been drafted higher regardless of attending a small school... the same way Jamie Collins was.

Mills and Mitchell will look significantly better assuming New England's defensive front is really good.

 

[All3Phases]

Brandon Meriweather played 4 years in New England, went to 2 Pro Bowls... he left and never approached his career best tackle or INT totals again, never saw another Pro Bowl.

Players get credited (or overrated) due to team success all the time.

Gilmore never had a season like his DPOY season in New England, in fact he made one Pro Bowl in five seasons in Buffalo. He made 3 Pro Bowls and two All Pro teams in New England. So no, corners never look as good on bad teams as they do on good teams... which makes sense given football starts at the line of scrimmage and works backwards.

Butler's prime didn't end as much as he was exposed for being who he was, good for two seasons and average after that. That's why he was an UDFA, if he was a superior athlete he would have been drafted higher regardless of attending a small school... the same way Jamie Collins was.

Mills and Mitchell will look significantly better assuming New England's defensive front is really good.

None of this really counters my points. Butler was an all pro in 2016. Will Mills or Mitchell play at an all pro caliber level this year? Better hope so

 

[Pats2000]

D-line was bad too.

D - line wasn't that bad. You can't stop a run game with just your dline

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Definitely a fair point. If the dropoff from JC to the new CB1 (be that Butler, Mills, or Jack Jones emerging) is so big that even doubling a guy like Diggs isn't working, then you've just robbed Peter to pay Paul. I don't even want to come across like I think everything is fine: There's a LOT for these guys to prove. I just fight against the notion of: We were bad last year, and lost Jackson, so now we're worse. I feel it's (potentially) more nuanced than that.

Agree with all of your posts, except I do not think it is "nuanced". Williams and Bryant played atrocious IMO. They both were repeatedly beaten like a drum - in the 2nd Bills game Bryant was beaten on crossing routes like 8 times? Replacing those two guys with anyone competent is not "nuanced", it is a HUGE upgrade. Yes, we take a step back at CB1, but a GIGANTIC step forward at CB2, CB3, and CB4. The two rookie Jones will be much better than Williams and Bryant. Maybe Williams steps up in his 4th year, but I doubt it.

 

[Wozzy]

None of this really counters my points. Butler was an all pro in 2016. Will Mills or Mitchell play at an all pro caliber level this year? Better hope so

Every season Stephon Gilmore played in Buffalo on terrible defenses he was better than Malcolm Butler... every. single. one.

He was better even when he wasn't making Pro Bowls/All Pro Teams and Butler was.

He was better at birth.

Butler got recognition because he was on the best team, Gilmore didn't suddenly and magically get good when he arrived in New England.

This is why BB paid Gilmore and not Butler like one of the best corners in the league... because it's a team sport.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

None of this really counters my points. Butler was an all pro in 2016. Will Mills or Mitchell play at an all pro caliber level this year? Better hope so

No I do not think Mills and Mitchell will play at a All Pro caliber level. I think they will be average to above average. That is fine. Not sure why you think we need All Pro guys.

 

[All3Phases]

No I do not think Mills and Mitchell will play at a All Pro caliber level. I think they will be average to above average. That is fine. Not sure why you think we need All Pro guys.

Just based on history of their defense, nothing else

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Just based on history of their defense, nothing else

I agree that having Gilmore and JC Jackson is preferred to what we have in 2022. But having 4 or 5 average to above average guys is much better than what we had in 2021. I like the deeper roster without an All Pro because than injuries do not destroy the secondary like it did last year. BB picked Mitchell after watching him play (like he did with Mills) so I think Mitchell will be OK, not great. I think the secondary will surprise, not great, but not atrocious like the last 4 or 5 games in 2021.

 

[All3Phases]

I agree that having Gilmore and JC Jackson is preferred to what we have in 2022. But having 4 or 5 average to above average guys is much better than what we had in 2021. I like the deeper roster without an All Pro because than injuries do not destroy the secondary like it did last year. BB picked Mitchell after watching him play (like he did with Mills) so I think Mitchell will be OK, not great. I think the secondary will surprise, not great, but not atrocious like the last 4 or 5 games in 2021.

2001-04 they had law/asante at the end. 14 they had Revis, 16 butler 18 Gilmore. All of which were all pro caliber players.