Is our defense this good?

[Sicilian]

Jalen Mills played when they couldnt force the Bills to punt as well. The first time, not the second time. You can rave about the depth all you want, but they have no top end talent. Im sure you would agree. Them going to zone heavy with a lot of mediocrity does not seem like its going to be bringing a ton of improvement imo

We didn't get them to punt with top end talent but no depth. The guy who MacKenzie was destroying in that second regular season Bills game was Myles Bryant. Now we don't have top end talent but more depth. We'll see if it's better. Some of that will depend on improved speed at the second level, and hopefully Barmore becoming a legit force up front. But the reason we lost those games last year was there was ALWAYS a total mismatch on the field. You can double a top WR. You can't double everyone, and if your CB3 or CB4 is consistently losing to their WR3/WR4 1 on 1, , you're going to give up third downs.

 

[Wozzy]

Jalen Mills played when they couldnt force the Bills to punt as well. The first time, not the second time. You can rave about the depth all you want, but they have no top end talent. Im sure you would agree. Them going to zone heavy with a lot of mediocrity does not seem like its going to be bringing a ton of improvement imo

Jon Jones has been one of the best slot CB's in the league for years, we have no clue how good Marcus or Jack Jones can be but both have talent... Marcus especially has next level talent and has looked good in camp so far. They have "top end talent" in the slot.

Mills and Mitchell aren't shut down CB's by any means, but then neither was JC Jackson. They're both similar to Otis Smith or other good technicians like Malcolm Butler or Logan Ryan in their prime, they're smart heady players who have talent in every measurable except one... inline speed. Not every player is going to be Gilmore or Deion Sanders and those guys are expensive... if the Pat's D is good along the front, at the line of scrimmage, then simply being "good" at outside CB could be enough. They're faster in the middle of the field which is where they had to get faster.

 

[Vindicate]

Well when you look at things through those lenses, no one deserves to be in the league.

I don't view Mills as mediocre. I think he's a good player who got better as last year went on, and is better than JJ Williams.

Mitchell is a veteran of this league with 51 career starts in this league. From all accounts he's having a good camp. Regardless, he's better than Justin Bethel.

Jon Jones needs to prove he's healthy, you're right. But when he is, he's bettet in the slot than Myles Bryant.

The drop off is Jackson to Butler. No argument there, that's a big one.

The point is, they're better 2-4 than they were at the end of the year last year. Lots can happen (injuries, etc) between now and the end of THIS season, but we haven't even accounted for contributions from the rookies, and the depth SHOULD be better. How much? We'll see in September.

A good way to vet your analysis is looking at plays where either a down was converted (especially some 3rd & longs) and see who was most often abused in passing conversions. If it's mostly the 2-4 range CB (which makes sense, JC was very good so you're not going to target him), then your argument has merit.

What's hard for us to measure is what the absence of JC looks like for the 2-4, and more importantly, the CB1.

 

[All3Phases]

Jon Jones has been one of the best slot CB's in the league for years, we have no clue how good Marcus or Jack Jones can be but both have talent... Marcus especially has next level talent and has looked good in camp so far. They have "top end talent" in the slot.

Mills and Mitchell aren't shut down CB's by any means, but then neither was JC Jackson. They're both similar to Otis Smith or other good technicians like Malcolm Butler or Logan Ryan in their prime, they're smart heady players who have talent in every measurable except one... inline speed. Not every player is going to be Gilmore or Deion Sanders and those guys are expensive... if the Pat's D is good along the front, at the line of scrimmage, then simply being "good" at outside CB could be enough. They're faster in the middle of the field which is where they had to get faster.

Sure, and you are relying on a lot of unknowns. We do know Butler, Mills and Mitchell are all mediocre outside cover guys. We do know that Jon Jones is coming off a major injury. We do know that JC Jackson turned into a tremendous player, who turned the ball over. He is no longer here. What we do know is theyre going to be a zone heavy team, and that usually means they arent confident in their cover guys

Like I said before, I like how the LB unit is getting quicker, they did sacrifice alot of knowledge and experience in doing so though

 

[Sicilian]

A good way to vet your analysis is looking at plays where either a down was converted (especially some 3rd & longs) and see who was most often abused in passing conversions. If it's mostly the 2-4 range CB (which makes sense, JC was very good so you're not going to target him), then your argument has merit.

What's hard for us to measure is what the absence of JC looks like for the 2-4, and more importantly, the CB1.

Definitely a fair point. If the dropoff from JC to the new CB1 (be that Butler, Mills, or Jack Jones emerging) is so big that even doubling a guy like Diggs isn't working, then you've just robbed Peter to pay Paul. I don't even want to come across like I think everything is fine: There's a LOT for these guys to prove. I just fight against the notion of: We were bad last year, and lost Jackson, so now we're worse. I feel it's (potentially) more nuanced than that.

 

[goheels22002]

Well, Belichick isn't convinced the defense is that good. He signed two safeties and a linebacker in the last 24 hours to compete for roster spots. The pressure is definitely on the defense to up its game.

 

[Vindicate]

Definitely a fair point. If the dropoff from JC to the new CB1 (be that Butler, Mills, or Jack Jones emerging) is so big that even doubling a guy like Diggs isn't working, then you've just robbed Peter to pay Paul. I don't even want to come across like I think everything is fine: There's a LOT for these guys to prove. I just fight against the notion of: We were bad last year, and lost Jackson, so now we're worse. I feel it's (potentially) more nuanced than that.

Totally agree.

 

[Sicilian]

Well, Belichick isn't convinced the defense is that good. He signed two safeties and a linebacker in the last 24 hours to compete for roster spots. The pressure is definitely on the defense to up its game.

He signed two safeties and a linebacker to fill a training camp roster. We see this every year, and 90% of them get cut within a week. There's no reason to think these signings are a sign (ha!) of how they feel about anyone else.

 

[Wozzy]

Sure, and you are relying on a lot of unknowns. We do know Butler, Mills and Mitchell are all mediocre outside cover guys. We do know that Jon Jones is coming off a major injury. We do know that JC Jackson turned into a tremendous player, who turned the ball over. He is no longer here. What we do know is theyre going to be a zone heavy team, and that usually means they arent confident in their cover guys

Like I said before, I like how the LB unit is getting quicker, they did sacrifice alot of knowledge and experience in doing so though

Jon Jones is practicing in full.

Mills and Mitchell are better than mediocre, they're not superstars but they're "good" technicians like I said above... Logan Ryan or Otis Smith.

They'll run a lot of zone outside because these guys don't possess top flight speed, but they're very athletic in every other respect. Their agility is top flight and they play physical. The Pat's will man up guys like Tyreek with Jon Jones or Marcus Jones, somebody who can match up with him... because that's what they did in the past when he was in KC.

Football is won in the trenches, as long as they're good upfront they could use Troy Brown at slot CB and still win a Super Bowl... they could win a Super Bowl with Logan Ryan and Malcolm Butler starting outside at CB... they were simply "good" not "great" as well.

 

[All3Phases]

Jon Jones is practicing in full.

Mills and Mitchell are better than mediocre, they're not superstars but they're "good" technicians like I said above... Logan Ryan or Otis Smith.

They'll run a lot of zone outside because these guys don't possess top flight speed but they're very athletic in every other respect. Their agility is top flight and they play physical. The Pat's will man up guys like Tyreek with Jon Jones or Marcus Jones, somebody who can match up with him... because thats what they did in the past when he was in KC.

Football is won in the trenches, as long as they're good upfront they could use Troy Brown at slot CB and still win a Super Bowl... they could win a Super Bowl with Logan Ryan and Malcolm Butler starting outside at CB... they were simply "good" not "great" as well.

Malcolm Butler was an all pro caliber player in his prime, those old teams had Ty and then Asante. You ignore the high end talent that were on those teams...This defense doesnt have it.

 

[Wozzy]

Malcolm Butler was an all pro caliber player in his prime, those old teams had Ty and then Asante. You ignore the high end talent that were on those teams...This defense doesnt have it.

Butler was seriously overrated, his prime lasted all of two seasons and he made one Pro Bowl and All Pro Team... and during a time the Pats were unquestionably one of the best teams and defenses in the league. Much like JC Jackson, he owed a lot of his success to the great defense around him and a defensive front which created pressure. Ty and Asante were a long time ago, I never mentioned them, I'm talking about 2015-2016.

Malcolm Butler and Logan Ryan were "good" not "great," and neither could run faster than a 4.5 forty. This was good enough to win a Super Bowl in 2016.

 

[n6249c]

Well, Belichick isn't convinced the defense is that good. He signed two safeties and a linebacker in the last 24 hours to compete for roster spots. The pressure is definitely on the defense to up its game.

Only time that’s not true is the few months between winning the Lombardi and starting OTAs. For all three aspects of t h e team.

 

[All3Phases]

Butler was seriously overrated, his prime lasted all of two seasons and he made one Pro Bowl and All Pro Team... and during a time the Pats were unquestionably one of the best teams and defenses in the league. Much like JC Jackson, he owed a lot of his success to the great defense around him and a defensive front which created pressure. Ty and Asante were a long time ago, I never mentioned them, I'm talking about 2015-2016.

Malcolm Butler and Logan Ryan were "good" not "great," and neither could run faster than a 4.5 forty. This was good enough to win a Super Bowl in 2016.

You mentioned Troy Brown playing corner, during the era of Ty and Asante. Which is why they could get away with that. Not to mention a ton of great players around them. They won a super bowl during Malcolms very short prime, when he was really good. Just like JC who was really good.

They never won a super bowl with a mediocre corner as their best corner...This is what theyre trying to do.

 

[Wozzy]

You mentioned Troy Brown playing corner, during the era of Ty and Asante. Which is why they could get away with that. Not to mention a ton of great players around them. They won a super bowl during Malcolms very short prime, when he was really good. Just like JC who was really good.

They never won a super bowl with a mediocre corner as their best corner...This is what theyre trying to do.

If we accept that Mills and Mitchell are simply mediocre... and that players like Logan Ryan, Malcolm Butler and Otis Smith weren't very similar players.

 

[All3Phases]

If we accept that Mills and Mitchell are simply mediocre... and that players like Logan Ryan, Malcolm Butler and Otis Smith weren't very similar players.

If Jalen Mills becomes an all pro, then we can call him Malcolm Butler. Until then, they never won a super bowl without a tremendous cornerback at the top of their roster. Do you agree?

 

[Wozzy]

If Jalen Mills becomes an all pro, then we can call him Malcolm Butler. Until then, they never won a super bowl without a tremendous cornerback at the top of their roster. Do you agree?

I don’t agree Malcolm Butler was ever “tremendous.” Butler, Logan Ryan… these guys weren’t fast. They ran 4.5 forties which is the only criticism we can hang over Mills and Mitchell’s head. And don’t tell me about PFF scores. Gilmore was trending down in Buffalo when he signed in NE, next thing you know he is the DPOY.

The myth of Butler’s greatness is propped up by the single greatest defensive play in Super Bowl history and solid play for two seasons in New England… a great team. He was never fast, he was an average athlete at best, in his prime he was only ever “good” and highly overrated.

If the Patriots defensive front is great, they can make a “good” CB look a lot better than he is. That’s why BB knew not to pay Butler anywhere near Gilmore money, same for JC Jackson.

 

[All3Phases]

I don’t agree Malcolm Butler was ever “tremendous.” Butler, Logan Ryan… these guys weren’t fast. They ran 4.5 forties which is the only criticism we can hang over Mills and Mitchell’s head. And don’t tell me about PFF scores. Gilmore was trending down in Buffalo when he signed in NE, next thing you know he is the DPOY.

The myth of Butler’s greatness is propped up by th single greatest defensive play in Super Bowl history and solid play for two seasons in New England… a great team. He was never fast, he was an average athlete at best, in his prime he was only ever “good” and highly overrated.

If the Patriots defensive front is great, they can make a “good” CB look a lot better than he is. That’s why BB knew not to pay Butler anywhere near Gilmore money.

Why are you randomly talking about speed? Malcolm wasnt great because of one play. He was an all pro corner, coincidentally in the year they won the super bowl. I also havent used any PFF scores, again, why are you bringing up random things. You saying he was overrated, doesnt make it true. He was very good in his prime.

 

[Wozzy]

Why are you randomly talking about speed? Malcolm wasnt great because of one play. He was an all pro corner, coincidentally in the year they won the super bowl. I also havent used any PFF scores, again, why are you bringing up random things. You saying he was overrated, doesnt make it true. He was very good in his prime.

His prime lasted two years, 2015/2016, after that he sucked and went to Tennessee and got benched for their nickel CB Adoree Jackson.

Speed is the only thing keeping Mills or Mitchell from being “great” instead of “good.”

 

[All3Phases]

His prime lasted two years, 2015/2016, after that he sucked and went to Tennessee and got benched for their nickel CB Adoree Jackson.

Speed is the only thing keeping Mills or Mitchell from being “great” instead of “good.”

So you agree, in his prime he was an all pro corner? Good. When he fell off, they had probably the best corner in the league on the roster. Which again, points to the fact every year they won a SB theyve had a great corner on the roster. Mills and Mitchell have been in the league for a while, they arent going to randomly become great players

 

[TheRainMaker]

Interesting, that defense sure played terrible against the Titans, Bucs, Browns, and Chargers last year. If only those teams were above. 500...

The defense was missing speed at the LB positions. They have that speed now. Let's see how they do before we bury the defense during the offseason

Browns were not a .500 team. They got two beat downs by the Bills and bullied against the Colts and Dolphins late in the year. They were 3-8 against teams above .500. 6 of their 7 regular season losses came against teams above .500. The defense is clearly worse than last year and is not instantly better because they now have “speed” at LB which is another bizarre narrative thrown around here. Does Gary Guyton ring a bell? Mack Wilson lost his job to another mediocre LB in Cleveland. McMillan is a journeyman who is always injured and former 5th round pick coming off of another torn ACL should not be relied upon. Bill’s priority this off-season was helping Mac even if it meant ignoring the defense.