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Concepts some posters could benefit from learning

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Brady has only one fourth quarter comeback this season.

At this rate, he'll have only 2 all year.

In year's past, he's had *way* more comebacks.

Damn, Brady must have gotten less clutch.

As I'm sure you know, they have to BE behind in order to come back. The number of 4th Qtr come-from-behind victories is a factor of the number of times a team was behind in the 4th quarter.

A Steelers fan posted that Rothlisburger is leading the league in 4th qtr CFB victories since 2004. I contend that the Steelers were playing from behind a lot more than the Patriots since 2004, therefor giving Ben more opportunities for CFB victories. but I'm NOT the type of guy who cares enough to look up such statistics.

But I know for a fact the only relevant way to measure who is better at coming from behind is to look at the # of 4th Qtr CFB victories divided by the total # of times a team was behind in the 4th qtr

Hell, the Patriots have only been behind in the 4th quarter once this year and they won...so Brady is 100% on success vs. opportunities
 
Nice post and I tend to agree. I certainly support the concept of using metrics to staff your team. BUT, sports is not the weather. When human beings compete, there is more than physics at work. These intangibles are what makes a player clutch. It would be easy for a team to call it a year down three games to the Yankees in the ALCS. It took something special for Schilling to get out to the mound with his bloody sock. And it isn't variance that raises TB's performance when the game is on the line with time running out.

I agree. He's coming at it from a very clinical perspective. I don't agree at all. What he's saying is essentially, we're all the same when it comes to how we perform in critical situations, that the idea some perform better than others in those situations is a myth.

Here's a couple of things the OP would benefit from:

1-Get your facts straight. We didn't win 3-straight.

2-Try and come across as something other than a self important know it all.
 
As I'm sure you know, they have to BE behind in order to come back. The number of 4th Qtr come-from-behind victories is a factor of the number of times a team was behind in the 4th quarter.

A Steelers fan posted that Rothlisburger is leading the league in 4th qtr CFB victories since 2004. I contend that the Steelers were playing from behind a lot more than the Patriots since 2004, therefor giving Ben more opportunities for CFB victories. but I'm NOT the type of guy who cares enough to look up such statistics.

But I know for a fact the only relevant way to measure who is better at coming from behind is to look at the # of 4th Qtr CFB victories divided by the total # of times a team was behind in the 4th qtr

Hell, the Patriots have only been behind in the 4th quarter once this year and they won...so Brady is 100% on success vs. opportunities

You might want to turn up the sensitivity on your sarcasm detector ...
 
NO ONE GIVES A CRAP!!

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm going to correct egregious mathematical errors where I see them.

Outside of that, your rant was misdirected when you aimed it at me -- I didn't start this thread or introduce new topics of discussion into it.
 
I have no patience for sports intellectuals because they don't know their a** from their elbow most times. Football is the least intellectual of all the major sports and the coach has the most influence.

Football is also by far the most emotional of all the major sports. The reason why the Patriots have consistently beaten the odds is due to Belichick's ability to fuel the team's collective emotion and focus toward one goal...to win the next game.

IMO, Saber-geeks have no place in football discussions. You can give me all your statistics and I would still say I'd beat 9 out of 10 of them on a game to game prediction because the most important elements determining who will win can't be found in the statistics.

Saber-geeks can help in the draft and free-agency process, but as for good football discussion, this is not the place for them

Part of me agrees, at the gut level... it's like "holy crap, look at this thread... what does this even have to do with the sport at all???"

But I can't agree with your posts a couple of times now, that there's little or no place for stats geeks in football. I will say that stats are on slipperier footing in football than in baseball... but it's not like you can just kick all stat discussions to the curb -- especially on a damn internet board. There's no very effective way to scream on a bulletin board, or paint your computer's face, to show your emotional fanhood. So intellectual discussion is exactly what you'll get on a discussion board (whatever the quality of that discussion.)

It gets on my nerves too when there's almost 40 pages on a theory that looks like it models reality poorly from my own point of view. Many others have commented on the flaws in the model as well... but hey, there are almost 40 pages. So maybe this type of content does have a place in a Pats board.

But just to get a little of the content in here we really want to see... I freakin HATE the bills. Water bills. Gas bills. Ducks' bills. Doesn't matter. Freakin BUFFALO bills though... Jesus H. Christ, they named their team for a guy with a novelty shooting act. And the guy with the shooting act named himself for their city, and the city is named for a nearly extinct herd animal. To quote Sarah Silverman "What the c o c k is that s h ***?"

PFnV
 
I have no patience for sports intellectuals because they don't know their a** from their elbow most times. Football is the least intellectual of all the major sports and the coach has the most influence.

Football is also by far the most emotional of all the major sports. The reason why the Patriots have consistently beaten the odds is due to Belichick's ability to fuel the team's collective emotion and focus toward one goal...to win the next game.

IMO, Saber-geeks have no place in football discussions. You can give me all your statistics and I would still say I'd beat 9 out of 10 of them on a game to game prediction because the most important elements determining who will win can't be found in the statistics.

Saber-geeks can help in the draft and free-agency process, but as for good football discussion, this is not the place for them

Excellent Point. Think of the hubris of the math nerds that think they can apply statistical analysis (any oxymoron when attempting to apply stats to most real world situations) to something like football.
 
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Not much. I have only the coincidence of a required course on research for a library course. We do zero math.

At least i know enough not to count the difference between 5th and 6th inning hits in seasons where the team is behind by 21, 22 games as being similar to the difference between postseason or season deciding games and regular season performance.


You do realize that

A) They FINISHED 21 or 22 games back, they didn't start that way (162 games)

and

B) If there were some more CLUTCHNESS during regular season close games, they wouldn't have been 22 games back
 
Part of me agrees, at the gut level... it's like "holy crap, look at this thread... what does this even have to do with the sport at all???"...there are almost 40 pages. So maybe this type of content does have a place in a Pats board.

PFnV

40 pages of general disgust for a thread subject is not the same as 40 pages of robust discussion on a topic (although, of course, I'm not suggesting any kind of censoring).
 
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There's no way I'm reading 37 pages of this discussion, I would just point out that the OP and anyone who things that there is no such thing as "clutch" .... trying playing a sport one of these days. Go out to your local park and see if you can join in a pick up game of basketball or touch football.

EVEN SOFTBALL !!!!

Seriously, it will do you some good. Just get out there and compete in SOMETHING other than casual debate. You might just get a new perspective on life and things that others have found important. Things that make the rest of us watch on Sundays.
 
Sorry to disappoint, but I'm going to correct egregious mathematical errors where I see them.

Outside of that, your rant was misdirected when you aimed it at me -- I didn't start this thread or introduce new topics of discussion into it.

Whatever As long as all the geeks clearly understand where they stand, that's all I care about.

Capiche?
 
Part of me agrees, at the gut level... it's like "holy crap, look at this thread... what does this even have to do with the sport at all???"

But I can't agree with your posts a couple of times now, that there's little or no place for stats geeks in football. I will say that stats are on slipperier footing in football than in baseball... but it's not like you can just kick all stat discussions to the curb -- especially on a damn internet board. There's no very effective way to scream on a bulletin board, or paint your computer's face, to show your emotional fanhood. So intellectual discussion is exactly what you'll get on a discussion board (whatever the quality of that discussion.)

It gets on my nerves too when there's almost 40 pages on a theory that looks like it models reality poorly from my own point of view. Many others have commented on the flaws in the model as well... but hey, there are almost 40 pages. So maybe this type of content does have a place in a Pats board.

But just to get a little of the content in here we really want to see... I freakin HATE the bills. Water bills. Gas bills. Ducks' bills. Doesn't matter. Freakin BUFFALO bills though... Jesus H. Christ, they named their team for a guy with a novelty shooting act. And the guy with the shooting act named himself for their city, and the city is named for a nearly extinct herd animal. To quote Sarah Silverman "What the c o c k is that s h ***?"

PFnV

Just keep in mind that the majority of the 40 pages is negative regarding the stat geek.
 
There's no way I'm reading 37 pages of this discussion, I would just point out that the OP and anyone who things that there is no such thing as "clutch" .... trying playing a sport one of these days. Go out to your local park and see if you can join in a pick up game of basketball or touch football.

EVEN SOFTBALL !!!!

Seriously, it will do you some good. Just get out there and compete in SOMETHING other than casual debate. You might just get a new perspective on life and things that others have found important. Things that make the rest of us watch on Sundays.

Stat geeks do not mix well at parties!
Stat geeks are 99% type-A personalities
Stat geeks bore their girlfriends and wives with senseless rantings of numbers
Stat geeks own every copy of Bill James ever written
Stat geeks get up every morning and kneel to face Bill James house
Stat geeks have a numerical argument to support every win or loss

Can anyone else add to this list?
 
There's no way I'm reading 37 pages of this discussion, I would just point out that the OP and anyone who things that there is no such thing as "clutch" .... trying playing a sport one of these days. Go out to your local park and see if you can join in a pick up game of basketball or touch football.

EVEN SOFTBALL !!!!

Seriously, it will do you some good. Just get out there and compete in SOMETHING other than casual debate. You might just get a new perspective on life and things that others have found important. Things that make the rest of us watch on Sundays.


I don't think the argument is clutch definitely does not exist. The argument is clutch is less of a skill than a lot of people think. Also me, you or the OP playing sports won't do anything to see how pressure affects professional athletes at the highest level.

I enjoy debates like these, though I definitely don't know enough to confidently suggest how much of a skill being clutch is.
 
LOL you guys really don't like the sabergeek do you?

You made a good point earlier, that the stats are more important in discussions of draft or free agency, that is, in personnel evaluation. And stats are stats -- if they worked regularly, we'd have a world where the stats controlled coaches' decisions. And of course, in that world, while 31 coaches go by what the stats say to do, coach #32 would realize that by following that model, the other coaches have created a statistical regime which needs only innovation in order to disappear in a puff of logic. In many ways, we've had coach #32 in that sense for a while.

Put another way: statistical analysis is a form of determinism, and football (like any competitive sport) is a game of will. If you impose your will, you are by definition doing things that are not predetermined.

Part of what pisses me off on threads like this one, is the idea that because I can model the result of the will, talent, and effort of teams after the fact, my model is therefore robust enough to make a prediction (the real test).

I think that's why people started saying "put your money where your mouth is," in regards to the statistical analysis. If the analysis is any good, it should be robust enough to make a prediction. If the analysis is not good enough to do that, why bother? And of course, the analysis is never good enough to make the prediction, specifically because probability deals with the likelihood of something, and people performing their roles in the game influence that likelihood.

The difference between reactions under pressure among individuals can be observed both within and outside of sports, especially in competitive situations. Survival situations, even moreso. We all know the story of the mother who weighs 100 pounds dripping wet, lifting a bus to save a baby (or some variant.) While the actual bus-lifting may never have happened, I've seen this effect. People can sometimes do things under pressure that they otherwise do not. Others, as noted here, tend to go to pieces.

Of course, that's all anecdotal stuff, like the anecdotal information about Vinatieri with the Pats mentioned earlier, and the "anecdotal" idea that the Pats are a good football team, and the Dolphins are a bad one.

Like I've said earlier, it's hard to support that notion statistically, because 16 games is such a miniscule sample... but we know it's true.

Here's where a saber geek would have to revert to explanations of other data sets -- like YPC for the running back and completion percentage for the QB --- because those are better populated. But again, why bother? Trying to model the totality of a team by those aspects represented in enough situations where you can make a statement with some confidence, innately impoverishes the model, by ignoring those aspects for which only spotty stats are available. We can't very well say the 07 Pats are a product of YPC and completion percentage. Or even those numbers and related/derived numbers. Actually watching the games gives you the model you are looking for... it's just that the model is doomed to exist in a non-verbal realm.

There's an old quote that applies here: The map is not the land. In fact, if you're used to walking that land (or at least, watching that land be walked) every Sunday, the map will probably just piss you off.

But hell, it's just a map. Mapmakers like to make maps. It's what they do. What's the harm?

Besides, the mapmakers come in handy if you ever end up lost (something I don't see happening this season

PFnV
 
Stat geeks do not mix well at parties!
Stat geeks are 99% type-A personalities
Stat geeks bore their girlfriends and wives with senseless rantings of numbers
Stat geeks own every copy of Bill James ever written
Stat geeks get up every morning and kneel to face Bill James house
Stat geeks have a numerical argument to support every win or loss

Can anyone else add to this list?

The big one:

Stats geeks are frauds, at least to an extent, when their models can not support predictive functions. And that's always.
 
Part of what pisses me off on threads like this one, is the idea that because I can model the result of the will, talent, and effort of teams after the fact, my model is therefore robust enough to make a prediction (the real test).

PFnV

Well written my dear friend. The above line perfectly outlined the criticism I had against the Wall Street Journal's sports writer, when he used stats and #s to inform us before the 2001 SB as to why the Rams will blow us away. If I remember right, he had written that we had no chance.

In fact, I emailed him right away (before the SB) that he is forgetting to mention that he or no other model is incapable of capturing the human element that drives the actions - be it anger or hunger or fear - and that can throw any model's predictions into the trash bin.

Which is why I am getting worried about tonight's game...can Moss run in the cold? can Welker be as sharp and survive the hits in the cold weather? can our OL hold up against the Bills who might be looking to avenge the hit that Losman suffered the first time? Let the nail biting begin...
 
OK. I haven't read through all of the replies, but am sceptical about the excessive use of stats. I'm a fan of what I see for myself. Let's say that you look at Tom Brady's numbers and conclude that he is 30% better than last year. Then you watch a game and see how much more time he has, just how ridiculously good Randy Moss is and how Wes Welker catches pretty much everything that is thrown at him. You realise that Tom Brady is almost certainly a better QB than last year (because he is a fantastic worker, who never overrates himself and strives to improve) but you can see that his supporting cast has improved immeasurably. Stats just don't explain everything. They don't show you how efficient Moss is at running routes, how fantastic his concentration is in grabbing high balls with one hand, or how brilliant Tom Brady's anticipation is of the oncoming pass rush.
 
The 2001 superbowl, to which the two posters above allude, is one of many, many examples in sport across the world as to why stats are only useful to a point.
 
Keep your probability in the classroom. This board will never become a haven for stats men because football fans prefer NOT to hear what they have to say.
the head coach of your football fan happens to be very receptive to stats. go read Chris Gaspers new book
 
Part of what pisses me off on threads like this one, is the idea that because I can model the result of the will, talent, and effort of teams after the fact, my model is therefore robust enough to make a prediction (the real test).

I made an offer earlier in the thread to use solely DVOA in a pick contest, against the spread, for remaining NFL games. nobody has taken me up yet.
 
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